July AMA: BTVS Unpopular Opinions

[rogueslayer452]

Asked by author_by_night: Do you have any unpopular opinions or hot takes about Buffy?

*cracks knuckles*


01. First and foremost, I don't think Willow and Xander were always the greatest friends to Buffy, to the point where I wished that Buffy had gotten other legitimate friends outside of them. Like, there were moments where she connected with others (Cordelia, Tara) but it never went passed a few conversations and scenes. Also, looking back, the Scooby gang felt a bit clique-ish at times especially later on. They hardly let anyone else into their little circle and, if they did, never quite tried to know them and basically they were all just extensions of other characters due to their romantic relationships with them instead of being their own person beyond that. Cordelia is the only character that got to shine and develop outside of them, and that was only because she went onto Angel that allowed her growth as a character.

02. Tara shouldn't have gotten back together with Willow. Her unfortunate and horrific death aside, especially since it was what fueled Willow to go on her Dark Willow rampage, it was clear that Tara and Willow weren't on the same page anymore particularly regarding magic, and how Willow disregarded Tara's autonomy and boundaries. Tara deserved her own arc and development outside of Willow, to exist beyond that relationship and become her own person, and it makes me bitter that she wasn't given that.

03. I've actually grown to appreciate aspects of season six, however it still is the hardest season to watch and therefore my least favorite to revisit aside from some episodes here and there.

04. Additionally, I don't hate season seven. I actually really liked the Potential Slayer storyline. I also don't hate Kennedy. I thought she was great, the only thing I disliked was her and Willow getting together which felt very inorganic. Bringing back The First Evil was a great final addition in terms of being the Final Big Bad of the show, I just wished they had integrated it much earlier, like interweaving its presence throughout the seasons so when it was brought back for the final season it would make better sense.

05. Truthfully, while I understand the narrative purpose of why they needed a reason and an explanation of how to bring Buffy back after her death, I dislike the way it was handled. I mean, I get that it was meant to be fucked up and traumatizing, making the revelation of Buffy actually being in Heaven even more devastating and her behavior and everything throughout the rest of the season make sense, but if the Scoobies really believed her soul was trapped in a demon dimension, you'd think they should've done more extensive research on the subject. If they had, they probably would've learned where Buffy actually was and left things alone. For the purpose of the show though, if they had to do the ritual to bring her back, Tara should've been the one to do it, not Willow.

06. Buffy/Angel are soulmates. Buffy/Faith are my OTP. Spike is better as a villain and without a soul (which lbr didn't change him one bit after he got it), and I much preferred the dynamic of Spike/Drusilla (esp in S2) but truthfully even Drusilla deserved better.

07. I remember having mixed feelings about the whole "Buffy gets kicked out of her own home" in the seventh season, and constantly went back and forth in how I felt about it over the years, but in the end I think it's pretty clear: that was perhaps the stupidest scene of the entire series. Not just for kicking Buffy out of her own house but for the tone of the conversation of other characters towards Buffy, like Anya claiming that Buffy thought she was superior than all of them because of her privilege of being a Slayer and how she was lucky, when the entire series has made it the point over and over again how unlucky and soul-crushingly lonely being the Slayer is. And ultimately, I hated that in the end it was just to make Spike, of all characters, uplift Buffy and tell her about her own self-worth when that should've never been the case to begin with. Overall, while I think conflict can be good for further development of the characters and plot, this was not how things should've been solved in terms of the differing opinions of how things were going with Buffy's leadership and the Potentials/Scoobies. There were plenty of other ways of going about it than kicking her out of the house and treating her like that, like come the fuck on.

(It makes me think about the S3 episode, "Dead Man's Party" of how everyone treated Buffy, the same shit and it makes me so mad).

08. Season one is extremely underrated. The monster-of-the-week episodes are silly and campy fun, and the season finale really sets the tone of what Buffy goes through for the rest of the show.


That's all I can think of at the moment, but believe me, I have plenty of thoughts and opinions (unpopular or not) regarding Buffy the Vampire Slayer. I adore the show, and over the years have gathered a lot of feelings about certain things.

Comments

[author_by_night]

(It makes me think about the S3 episode, "Dead Man's Party" of how everyone treated Buffy, the same shit and it makes me so mad).
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THANK you. I understand being hurt, I understand they didn't know that Angelus had turned back into Angel, but based on what they knew, she still staked someone sharing a body with the person she loved (if we want to say that vampires with souls and without them are two different entities, which the show kind of flip-flopped on IIRC). Someone running away from home usually means they're not okay. They were actually more forgiving of her in the S2 premiere, IIRC, when she was really being quite terrible.

Honestly, even in season six... they go through all that trouble to bring her back from the dead (and I agree with you about doing research first, BTW), butI don't think they did much to help her after that. Giles hightails it out of there rightafter learning Buffy had been in Heaven, and while I know that was more Real Life Writes the Plot, it still didn't work for me.

I liked Buffy's growing friendship with Tara. I wish we'd seen more of that. Also, I know they were on two different shows and it just wouldn't have worked, I think Angel!Cordelia and later seasons!Buffy would've had a ton to talk about.

. Tara deserved her own arc and development outside of Willow, to exist beyond that relationship and become her own person, and it makes me bitter that she wasn't given that.

Good point. I didn't really mind them getting back together, but you're right that they were on different pages. Maybe even before Willow started misusing magic. I think Willow sees magic as technology, almost, whereas Tara sees it as something spiritual to be revered and respected.

Certainly after Willow basically mind raped Tara, that should have been it for them. Or they should have gotten together much later, except they needed them to reconcile quickly because they were about to kill Tara off. Yeah, Tara deserved better, period.

I had a thought to add to that, but I want to throw in a caveat that I actually haven't read or seen a whole lot of fantasy or sci fi. But from what I have read and seen, often mind wiping and magically altering people and places is treated nonchalantly, if to different degrees. Harry Potter in particularly is guilty of this, and even before I disavowed JKR, I actually had major problems with that. I feel like Torchwood skirts the line, where randomly wiping people's memory isn't okay per se, but it's not necessarily treated with the gravity it deserves, either. So I do like that Buffy tried addressing how messed up that was, but it's undercut when Tara decides to pretend it just never happened.

Also, I somehow missed that Willow had been using the memory charm on Tara THE ENTIRE TIME. I thought it was just after that one fight. But you know, even if it was, that would still be wrong. And to promise her she'd stop, only to do everything that called Tabula Rasa? It kind of takes me out of the episode, honestly. I love it, but also, holy shit, Will.

08. Season one is extremely underrated. The monster-of-the-week episodes are silly and campy fun, and the season finale really sets the tone of what Buffy goes through for the rest of the show.


Agreed. Some of the episodes really didn't age well, but yeah, it's fun. I think there's just a slight genre shift, so maybe if you really only want the grittier stuff, the first season and a half might be harder. (IIRC, even the first half of season two was pretty campy. Then Angel becomes Angelus.)

Speaking of, I also liked Angel the Series season one. Although I have to imagine Doyle reads like a Nice Guy now.

Oh, circling back -

For the purpose of the show though, if they had to do the ritual to bring her back, Tara should've been the one to do it, not Willow.

GOD. And imagine what a crisis of faith that would have been for our Tara. Actually, that plotline would've been really interesting. And maybe Willow doesn't overstep by mind raping Tara, but by trying to help both her and Buffy heal without fully understanding her place. Interesting.

[rogueslayer452]

Someone running away from home usually means they're not okay. They were actually more forgiving of her in the S2 premiere, IIRC, when she was really being quite terrible.

It's interesting how different their reactions were to her in "When She Was Bad" versus everything every time after that, it's almost like they regressed in terms of understanding where she was coming from in how she was acting. I can't quite remember precisely, but I think they were a bit flabbergasted and uncertain of how to handle this new Buffy who came back to Sunnydale that seemed unrecognizable, which considering at that point is understandable. But then it makes no sense that they just couldn't get it after the fact, or approach it in any other way that wasn't confrontational and tone deaf.

butI don't think they did much to help her after that.

Something that is constantly brought up that I agree with is that they (Willow, Tara, Dawn) were living in the house without contributing anything to paying the bills and other legal upkeep, and after bringing Buffy back just dumped all that responsibility onto her. It felt really unfair and gross for them to do that. There was definitely a tone of "yay Buffy's back! Everything is back to how it was!" when that's not the case. Not just in general with any kind of bringing anyone back from the dead (aka the "came back wrong" trope that has gained traction in fannish spaces lately, exploring the horrors of being brought back against your will and forced to be someone's version of who they think you are, discarding personal autonomy, etc) but when Buffy died and was resurrected the first time she also wasn't herself and was deeply affected and traumatized by her confrontation with The Master. Why would this be any different?

Furthermore, if they had believed she was trapped in a demon or hell dimension, knowing what we know about how time operates differently when in those dimensions, so just bringing her back and expecting her to be the same as she had been was selfishly dismissive of what she could've possibly had gone through.

Also, I know they were on two different shows and it just wouldn't have worked, I think Angel!Cordelia and later seasons!Buffy would've had a ton to talk about.

It's such a missed opportunity that I'm sad we never got to have, because those shows did have a few crossovers, although it seemed that only a few characters made a guest appearance on Angel rather than the other way around, which sucks when you think how amazing it would've been for Cordelia or Wesley to make a briefly return to Sunnydale. I liked the dynamic Buffy and Cordelia shared on BTVS, and I think if they reconnected in the later seasons they would have a lot of things in common to discuss and share, like Cordelia changed a lot since Buffy last saw her and I think this would prompt her to reconnect on a much deeper level than before, with a bit more understanding of what they were individually going through.

I think Willow sees magic as technology, almost, whereas Tara sees it as something spiritual to be revered and respected.

It makes me wonder why they didn't go the route of Willow becoming a technopagan, to be a true successor to Jenny Calender who she clearly admired. It would make sense given that's how she started practicing magic to begin with by taking over where Jenny left off.

Magic was clearly a shield for Willow to hide her insecurity of feeling useless and inferior to others, to the point where it became like a crutch for her. She ultimately viewed it as a method to take care of problems or solving issues that were beyond her control, however it's evident that she became addicted to that kind of power and refused to acknowledge that she was doing anything wrong. In her mind she was being helpful, she was fixing things that needed correcting, she was being useful instead of the loser nobody she was in high school. This is kind of why the whole "magic is a drug" thing they did in season six doesn't work, because I do think she was addicted to using magic it wasn't because magic itself was a drug, but that she was addicted to the power it gave her.

IIRC, even the first half of season two was pretty campy. Then Angel becomes Angelus.

It had that similar campiness feel that season one had, those random but fun monster-of-the-week type episodes, but yeah the tonal shift hits hard when the Angelus arc kicks in that definitely shaped the show into what it's known for.

Speaking of, I also liked Angel the Series season one. Although I have to imagine Doyle reads like a Nice Guy now.

Eh, not really. He has a crush on Cordelia and tries at times to get at least something like a date, but he's not annoyingly butthurt when it doesn't happen.

GOD. And imagine what a crisis of faith that would have been for our Tara. Actually, that plotline would've been really interesting. And maybe Willow doesn't overstep by mind raping Tara, but by trying to help both her and Buffy heal without fully understanding her place. Interesting.

That would've been interesting to explore, for sure. There are so many possibilities of how this could have been done, and truthfully I do think Tara being the one to do such a ritual would've been such a beautiful character development that went beyond just her relationship with Willow. It would've been heartbreaking and devastating, and such an interesting concept, including Willow still overstepping those boundaries and not reading the room correctly, probably even further demonstrating the major difference regarding their relationship with magic and their intentions with their powers. It's all so juicy, and it makes me think of what we could've had instead.

[rhoda_rants]

Also, looking back, the Scooby gang felt a bit clique-ish at times especially later on.

Oh, they're totally cliquey! Especially during the college years, when they're basically all in the same friend group, despite ostensibly being in a different environment. The only newcomers are Tara (♥) and Riley, and Buffy and Willow even get to be roommates.

Tara deserved her own arc and development outside of Willow, to exist beyond that relationship and become her own person, and it makes me bitter that she wasn't given that.

You're not wrong, although I'm wondering how they would've made that work, given Tara her own arc and development and still be part of the gang while being Willow's ex.

I had the same thoughts about Season Six when I rewatched it recently. There's a lot of interesting stuff happening in that season, although it is unquestionably the hardest to get through. (And the reason I still haven't gone past it, honestly.)

[rogueslayer452]

It's like the joke regarding Friends where they're never hanging out with anyone else, just their little friend group, it's the same with the Scooby Gang here. It's funny because you'd think that, after being on the Hellmouth and knowing that others know that to, that they would be willing to let others into their circle, even if temporarily (like with Cordelia, she was among them from time to time and even joined in their little missions and plans but she did have a life outside of them). It made somewhat sense in the beginning because they were young and outcasts, but after high school there was no excuse.

You're not wrong, although I'm wondering how they would've made that work, given Tara her own arc and development and still be part of the gang while being Willow's ex.

They've made it work before, at least in regards to Cordelia and Anya after their breakups with Xander. It would've been awkward at first, sure, but I think it would've been interesting had that occurred because being among the same friend group would've forced the narrative to address the issues they had. Also, it's not like they had to be together all the time as a group, we could've had separate moments with the characters, like Buffy and Tara bonding together or Tara and Dawn continuing their adorable dynamic, and so on.

[whisperwords]

I agree with a lot of what you’ve said here! And I think that the Buffy kicking-out scene also does a huge disservice to all the friendships in their cloth, actually. Because in that ONE scene, it is made very clear that all these people who supposedly are Buffy’s friends, who are supposed to know her better than anyone, don’t know her at all. No wonder she feels so alone afterward. No wonder she felt so alone when she came back from heaven. It all just sends this message that Buffy is surrounded entirely by people who use her and do not truly understand her. And I do NOT actually think that’s what the showrunners were going for.

[rogueslayer452]

Because in that ONE scene, it is made very clear that all these people who supposedly are Buffy’s friends, who are supposed to know her better than anyone, don’t know her at all.

I kinda clocked that early on that neither Willow or Xander knew her that well at all when they didn't recognize that Buffy wasn't Buffy in two separate occasions (when Faith bodyswapped with Buffy and with the Buffybot, the former which it was actually Tara who knew something was wrong despite not knowing Buffy that well), and while those were some individual instances this episode really hammered that notion home but involved everyone else to join in dogpiling on Buffy with ridiculous accusations and claims. Like, it felt so unfair, even with Dawn, who I adore dearly, acting like she had authority over her older sister to personally throw her out like, what? Buffy was absolutely ganged up on for no reason and it makes me angry thinking about the whole thing that should've have happened in the first place.

It was such a poorly handled scene, full stop.

[elizalavelle]

Tara was such a good friend to Buffy, I wish they'd had more scenes together.

I get shows have a bit of being stuck by the fact this is a job for the actors and if they have a 7 year contract they're there for the duration. It means we can't see the normal thing people do where friendships change and sometimes you outgrow your highschool friends.

I agree about Tara and Willow and also think it's a realistic thing. Sometimes breakups take a few tries before they stick.

YES Buffy being kicked out of her own home that she paid for was ridiculous. I hate that scene. I like your parallel to Dead Man's Party because it is the same vibe. Buffy's friends suck in these moments. She is carrying so much weight on her shoulders and they don't get it. I can forgive DMP more because everyone is in high school still. By the time they kick her out of her home they're adults and have had way more life experiences. It's ridiculous that they'd ask her to leave.

[rogueslayer452]

It means we can't see the normal thing people do where friendships change and sometimes you outgrow your highschool friends.

Yeah, like expanding their friend group or having friends, even just friendly acquaintances, outside of that group would've shown how friendships worked outside of high school. Plus this was Sunnydale, they were on top of a Hellmouth, you'd think that they would find more connections and others who could help them and want to be part of their little group, or simply just be on friendly terms and appear every once in a while and be close with one of them.

I agree about Tara and Willow and also think it's a realistic thing. Sometimes breakups take a few tries before they stick.

We really should've gotten that kind of development of that. Season six was darker, more depressing in tone with the characters and their relationships, so it would've made sense to explore that yeah, perhaps after a few repeated instances them breaking up should've been final. It would've been emotionally devastating, but after what Tara had to endure she needed to break away and for Willow to acknowledge and learn from her mistakes, and for them to grow outside of the relationship. Whether or not they got back together is beside the point, because, at least for me, Tara deserved to have her own separate arc where she developed as her own character and not just as an extension of Willow. But unfortunately, we never got that, because her quickly getting back together with Willow (which happens, getting back with an ex only to break up again is part of the trial and error of messy breakups and relationships that need to properly heal) only for her to be the "dead wife" trope for Dark Willow in the end of six season. Which, honestly, kinda sucks and why Tara deserved much better.

By the time they kick her out of her home they're adults and have had way more life experiences. It's ridiculous that they'd ask her to leave.

And I hate that it was Dawn, her own sister, who told her to leave. That made no sense, and it felt like such a betrayal in terms of the writing and the character relationships, particularly the continuity of Buffy and Dawn's sisterly bond where Buffy sacrificed so much for her. Ugh.

It felt both out of character and yet in-character at the same time, there have been multiple instances over the course of the series where the Scoobies didn't understand Buffy's struggles or the weight of the world that was on her shoulders. But you're right, they had no excuse this time with everyone being adults in the seventh season, knowing exactly the kind of sacrifices and hardships that Buffy had to endure the entire time she's been the Slayer.

It really kinda hammers home how lonely a Slayer's existence is, even with friends and those who supposedly care about her. The show attempts to debunk this, that with Buffy rebelling against the strict lifestyle of a Slayer (going to school, having friends, having as much of a social life as she could), but it's moments like this that really kind of prove that point to be true. :(

[elizalavelle]

An interesting thing to explore would have been what are all of the other people in Sunnydale doing. We know many are in denial but I have to imagine that others may not have been in the scooby gang but were doing their own kind of thing (like Gunn in LA) and having them encounter a slayer might have been a neat dynamic. I guess they tried that with the Initiative but that was not really well executed for the most part. It had good moments but as a transitional season it has rough moments too.

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Tara deserved so much better. Someone else could have died or been hurt to set off Willow. Or Willow could have just set herself off, that was the path her character was on.

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Also agree, Dawn being "it's my house too" was a moment of such teen audacity. Like maybe I get trying that out BUT every other adult should have shut that down immediately. She hasn't paid the bills, she's not managing the house. She can have an opion but not the deciding vote. Also yes her sister literally died to save her. Have some loyalty Dawn!

Being a slayer sucks and is lonely and I think part of awakening everyone as a finale is a message of hope that it won't be so lonely. Other people will exist who know what you're going through.

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