Lords of Kobol, hear my prayer...

I work with a Trumper and he goes on rants based on whatever the media feeds him so I walked into one where he was livid about having to address a cheque for work to a Mx. vs a Mr. or Ms. - We had some words and I think I finally got through to him by pointing out that the different letter made zero impact on his life and that if it was a kindness to someone else why not do it? We talked a bit about how neither of us had felt like we were born into the wrong body so of course that was a harder concept to understand but why hurt others who were going through that?

I managed to get through to him long enough for him to write the cheque properly, by the next day he was back to an anti-trans rant so I'm guessing he got his daily dose of "news" that night.

Mostly I figure for myself that I can choose to be kind or not, that's what it comes down to. I don't have to understand the different genders deeply but I have to respect that people know their own selves more than I do. Even in cases where I have seen people who seem to be changing pronouns for attention it doesn't hurt me any to roll with that. There's a chance I could be wrong or there's a chance they could be attention seekers but at the end of the day them being an attention seeker hurts me zero and me misgendering someone could hurt them a lot. Better to just call people the pronoun they are comfortable with.

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Maybe he'll change still, and just needs more conversations. We can only hope.

I agree it's best to to just be respectful. Moreover, I imagine the number of true attention seekers is very low. I don't doubt that it happens, but given how many trans and nonbinary people are assaulted and killed for existing, I really can't imagine it's even remotely common. (I know what you're saying, no worries, just adding onto it. )

Conversely, if you suspect someone is trans or NB, you still have to let them come out. I've known a few people who very much presented as gender fluid, but you know, that's for them to tell. If it's even the case at all. There IS a certain way we view gender that is, in and of itself, problematic and more societal than scientific. A few years ago some family members and I were talking about this, and I was saying how some little boys like "girly" things. As I was saying it, though, I realized... what the hell are girly things? Who decided that a little boy liking dolls was girly? I'm not saying that there isn't certain behavior that tends to be more masculine or feminine, but society has also dictated what kids "should" enjoy, and they pick up on that pretty fast.

(Also, GI Joes are dolls. Just saying.)

Edited Date: 2021-08-21 10:50 am (UTC)

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I have a young extended family member who's gay, so not the same thing as trans, but nonetheless... I hate the idea that intolerance is somehow for queer kids' own good. No. I'd rather LGBTQ+ kids know there is nothing wrong with them and that they deserve to be loved. Affirming their identity will do that. Telling them they're freaks of nature and anyone affirming them is a liar... just... no. Oh, it makes me mad.

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It's also true that misgendering cis het people can be upsetting — NOT on the same level, no trauma, but there's always this sense that you're not supposed to call someone Ma'am if they're a Sir, or Sir if they're a Ma'am. We all know this. So why does it change if we don't think that's right?

I've known people whose genders I misunderstood, or who presented as XYZ but were introduced as ZYX. Whether they're trans or genderfluid or just... present differently from my immediate expectations doesn't matter. They are who they are and it's just common sense to respect that, regardless. Why is it any of my business, how does it hurt me if I was mistaken, regardless of the reasons? No one has the right to dictate how someone else should be addressed.

And they/them is everyday usage. You're exactly right about that.

Edited Date: 2021-08-21 10:42 am (UTC)

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noybusiness.livejournal.com

I was in a local informal sci-fi writers group where the leader/organizer pretended to be accepting but at one meeting where all the obviously LGBT members (he didn't know about me) weren't present, he said that to him thinking you're trans or non-binary seemed like thinking you're really a dog. I later had a bad experience with him personally when he supported another member (a Karen, as it's called) in deceiving the group to expel me.

My friend whom I went to the first meeting with didn't like him from the start and didn't go to subsequent meetings, but I had kept attending because I wanted to socialize with people with similar interests.

Same here re:learning pronouns in school, which made it odd when I encountered some teachers in college who insisted they/them couldn't be used as a singular in language.

Edited Date: 2021-08-21 02:13 pm (UTC)

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I would also imagine the amount of attention seekers is low. I've known a few who just jump on whatever bandwagon there is to try to get followers online. But I also don't know their truth so maybe when they say they're non binary they mean it as opposed to the last thing they said, or maybe they don't. Either way it hurts me zero to change to they/them pronouns and if they want to change back in a while that's okay too.

Oh yes best not to assume someone is out or insist on pronouns that you think fit them before they're ready. I just figure it's all comfort level. If I can do something that makes someone else more comfortable that's a good thing to do.

Agreed about the way we view gender being problematic. The fact we've gendered toys and jobs etc. as a society is an issue. GI Joes are definitely dolls. I liked making up stories with dolls etc. when I was little but I remember I got Polly Pockets and my brother got Mad Max. Mad Max lived in spooky castles with monsters etc. and I just took his set and combined them both so my little dolls could have better stories. Sometimes Frankenstein was brought to a nice house to learn what a real bed felt like and to be pampered, sometimes Polly went on a proper adventure.

I think society at large is getting a better idea that gender is not so black and white as we thought it was and also that it really doesn't matter. I'm hopeful for future generations getting to let go of the "rules" a bit more.

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I hope coworker will change... but I've got doubt. He's a disenfranchised boomer who has put his anger in the wrong places. It's always someone else's fault that his life didn't go the way he wanted BUT it's not ever the rich or powerful who create systems that ensure the rich get richer, the poor are screwed, and anyone in the middle drifts a little closer to poor each year. That's a complex thing to tackle, especially as he's a Conservative voter (similar to Republicans in the US) and doesn't want to deal with the fact that he is and has been voting against his own interests for years. As long as he thinks someone else is getting hurt more by his vote he'll keep casting it that way.

And dude is from an immigrant family. I'm unsure if he was born in Canada, but his parents weren't. Yet he's super against immigrants now... It's a lot of frustrating.

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There are, sadly, immigrants and kids of immigrants who believe their parents came "the right way." And ignore other things. For instance, everyone I know whose parents or grandparents were immigrants will say "(s)he /they never learned English." Yet some of them will also talk about how immigrants should all speak English. It's not typical of non-English speaking immigrants to learn immediately, or maybe at all. It's always been the case that 9/10, the kids end up translating, especially if said immigrants live in areas where everyone speaks the same or a similar language.

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It's just so funny that people can understand that, but not when it comes to someone's actual identity.

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What really gets to me, is when the negativity and hostility is tried disguised as care for trans people, often towards trans-children

It's really unnerving how people can be that cruel especially if they're pretending to be caring and doing it "for their own good" when in actuality they're just practicing further intolerance and hatred. The fake niceness of it all, the whole, "we're doing this to protect you" when really it's just so they don't have to deal with anything that they cannot understand and won't bother to.

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I'm also hoping that he can change. I'm sure that he's surrounded by a lot of things that influence that kind of intolerance on a daily basis, and having one conversation isn't going to magically change him overnight. He just needs more people around him to kind of open his eyes and his mind a little bit. Not that that's your responsibility, of course. It's just something I'm hoping, because I've seen people claim that once you've entered that alt-right mindset there is no going back, and the older you are the less likely you'll change, and I don't like to think that's true. It can be hard to change the mind of someone who has believed in such rhetoric most of their lives, but it's not impossible.

but I have to respect that people know their own selves more than I do.

Exactly, and this is something that I think more people need to understand. You don't know someone better than they know themselves, so attempting to police or correct or convert them based on your biases and worldview reflects badly on you, and shows how intolerant you are of not letting people just be themselves. Mainly, that's a you problem, not theirs.

I find that even if people are being trolls and doing it for attention (which is less than 1% of the time, anyway), they're most likely going through something and, aside from misgendering them to "prove a point" is counterproductive anyway and really showcasing your own intolerance just because the other side is being a dick, by being mean to them and belittling them isn't going to solve anything. It's easy to go down the mean-spirited route when someone is being an asshole, but I think it's easier to show yourself to actually be tolerable and nice and polite. This goes doubly for people you don't like, which I've seen a lot of and I think it's very horrible that just because you don't like someone doesn't give you the right to misgender or call them derogatory words. If you don't like that being done to you or towards others, why is it acceptable to do it to someone you don't like?

At the end of the day, just be nice and courteous and respect what people prefer to be called/referred to.

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verdande-mi.livejournal.com

Yes, and who knows more about being trans than trans-people! It’s so belittling and a way to talk people down by pushing them to the side-line of their own story and life. I am glad more trans people are making their voices heard. I listened to a very interesting talk yesterday, with different representatives of trans-rights groups in the Nordic countries (as part of World Pride in Copenhagen) and that was highlighted as something that gave hope, their own community and their voices.

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verdande-mi.livejournal.com

This was so important to me when I talked with the pupils I had before summer about sex, puberty, gender and identity, making sure it came across how wide the ident spectrum is, whether it is regards to gender or sexuality, or whatever, and to affirm that and be positive to diversity.

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sictransits.livejournal.com

Very well said! I agree, the world would be a much better place if everyone could show respect and kindness towards everyone.

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They are who they are and it's just common sense to respect that, regardless. Why is it any of my business, how does it hurt me if I was mistaken, regardless of the reasons? No one has the right to dictate how someone else should be addressed.

Yes, precisely. And if you're going out of your way to purposefully misgender or deadname someone, that's not only disrespectful and potentially dangerous to the individual in question but it also reflects poorly of your character, that you would rather be disrespectful and rude to someone who didn't ask for much other than to respect who they are. How is referring someone to their preferred pronouns a slight against you? How is it harming you?

(Also, while I expect intolerance from the alt-right side with these things, it is very disheartening and disappointing when I see even self-proclaimed progressive types doing this very thing, viewing it as "made up" and making fun of people who use neo-identities. Again, what does it matter? Who is it hurting? Who are you to judge how people want to identify? They're are trying to figure themselves out. Nobody fits perfectly into a box and sometimes that box needs expanding, bending, and revising, and there is nothing wrong with people experimenting and finding out where they belong and to feel free and be themselves.)

I know that this conversation is still slightly new when it comes to it getting more public attention, so people unfamiliar with it are going to be confused and that's okay, but human decency should always come first, whether you understand it or not.

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Ugh, people who are two-faced like that are horrible. I don't know what's worse, people who fake being accepting and then turn around and seethe/rant/let out their toxicity when they think nobody is looking, or those who are within the community who basically like to gatekeep because they don't like the expansion of the community becoming more inclusive of other identities.

Same here re:learning pronouns in school, which made it odd when I encountered some teachers in college who insisted they/them couldn't be used as a singular in language.

It's so strange.

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Co-worker seems to have a more balanced wife. He got his first vaccine and hasn't bene at the anti-vax/masks/lockdown protests here because she's said if he goes to those he can't come back home. He's not got the second vaccine though because he needs to "research" so... she's only got some leverage there but it's better than nothing.

Agreed on the misgendering to prove a point. It's not going to help them with whatever they are going through and probably will just cause them more harm even if their gender isn't the issue.

It comes down to the Wil Wheaton rule: don't be a dick. It's good in all situations.

Frankly if the person is a terrible person or being a troll etc. if you are kind to them and go with whatever gender they ask to be called etc. they just look like bigger and bigger assholes. Let them dig their own hole on that, they'll show the world who they are.

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