This is where things get interesting.

[rogueslayer452]

More Legend of the Seeker news: from this post here gives details about how to contact STARZ, since it seems the more people expressing their demands about wanting the show the more probable it'll become a surefire deal. Still not getting my hopes up just yet, but from the sound of things this definitely looks promising especially from the report the poster gave about talking to someone from the network there was so optimism there. *still crossing fingers*

In other news, M. Night Shyamalan continues to be a douchebag. Also, this is the first I've heard of him possibly having been close to directing the Harry Potter movies. I shudder to imagine how that would have turned out...

I still haven't read any spoilers whatsoever and I'd like to keep it that way so please don't tell me anything, but judging from people's reactions to what has been released I think I might take a break from Supernatural for a while? I don't know. I've just not been incredibly enthusiastic about anything with the sixth season, the fact that they even have a sixth season leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. This is what I dreaded would happen, actually. I want to be reassured that this is just an over-exaggeration, that it's not as bad as it seems to be, but I can't help but feel I'm going to be in disappointment and rage with whatever is being planned for it, and mostly because of Sera Gamble but that's another rant altogether. They really should have ended it properly with the Apocalypse, because right now I'm just kind of over the Sam and Dean melodramatics. I'd take an angel mythology spin-off over hearing the same-old Winchester angsty manpain anyday, to be brutally honest with you.

I'm not leaving fandom or anything, this is just how I'm feeling lately. It might change, it might not, only time will tell. I'm still sticking around, especially in the Dean/Castiel and Castiel/Misha Collins parts of fandom because, how can I not? I love you guys, sfm. ♥

This is half the reason why I've been going to other fandoms more recently, to kind of get my mind away from possible trainwreckage and onto new shiny toys. Which, btw, himhilien? Totally am downloading all of Avatar: The Last Airbender right now. I planned on doing that anyway since I am really liking the series, though since we no longer have OnDemand I can no longer see the random bubble trivia pop-ups. So I has a sad. :(

Comments

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I would have Sam return just have his own separate thing going on. For them to go off independently yet still remaining brothers and helping each other out when needed is the best way to show that their characters have grown apart from their codependency and where they once had been.'

And Dean and Castiel can have some funtiems with each other, of course. ;)'
Oh man, that would be awesome! With all of Sera's talk about season six being a Sam and Dean love story, I doubt that will ever happen.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Oh man, that would be awesome! With all of Sera's talk about season six being a Sam and Dean love story, I doubt that will ever happen.

Well, technically speaking, the entire show has more or less been about the "love story" between the brothers and their saga together. Which goes to show how much "resolution" they're giving the characters by having the same schtick over and over again every season. But naturally, I'd take any other idea over Stephanie Meyer Sera Gamble's any day.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'But naturally, I'd take any other idea over Stephanie Meyer Sera Gamble's any day.'
I wonder if Lisa is going to turn out to be her Bella *shudders*. I watch Supernatural for a lot of reasons but seeing Dean play house and be daddy to Ben isn't one of them. I'm kind of hoping for something like the end of Neverwhere where Dean thinks a normal life is what he wants, but it turns out that's not what he wants a all. They could even work in a 'Cas thought he wanted Heaven' parallel.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I wonder if Lisa is going to turn out to be her Bella *shudders*.

Knowing what this show does the women characters that are potential love interests, I'm positive she might turn out as such. *shudders with you*

I'm kind of hoping for something like the end of Neverwhere where Dean thinks a normal life is what he wants, but it turns out that's not what he wants a all. They could even work in a 'Cas thought he wanted Heaven' parallel.

God, I truly hope so, because other then the paralleling how else are they going to fit the "hunting monsters on a daily basis" gig and with Castiel coming back? Adding Lisa and Ben into the equation is only going to be putting them in danger and that's the farthest thing from Dean's mind, if they want to go by continuity. See, that's another thing that doesn't make sense.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Knowing what this show does the women characters that are potential love interests, I'm positive she might turn out as such. *shudders with you*'
Pretty much.

'God, I truly hope so, because other then the paralleling how else are they going to fit the 'hunting monsters on a daily basis' gig and with Castiel coming back?'
I just hope we don't get another season of Cas not really doing anything.

'Adding Lisa and Ben into the equation is only going to be putting them in danger and that's the farthest thing from Dean's mind, if they want to go by continuity. See, that's another thing that doesn't make sense.'
True. Although knowing these writers they might just kill Lisa off (like we haven't seen THAT before) and get rid of Ben so they can ratchet up the manpain.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I just hope we don't get another season of Cas not really doing anything.

ITA. Although he didn't really do nothing, they didn't extend his storyline like I believed they were going to in the fifth season. Which is why I still maintain the proposition of having a spin-off with Castiel on his mission to find God, which would have been more effective to seeing him going slightly downhill in his faith.

But you know, I'm just a wee mere fan that actually cares about the characters she loves. Don't mind me.....

True. Although knowing these writers they might just kill Lisa off (like we haven't seen THAT before) and get rid of Ben so they can ratchet up the manpain.

I wouldn't be surprised, though I would devastated that they took one of the few good female characters on the show and ruined it to further that overused plot between the brothers. Why couldn't they just leave Lisa alone? Seriously. It's bad enough they can't write decent recurring female characters that stick around, but to ruin one of the few good ones that people genuinely liked until this happened? Way to go, show. :/

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Which is why I still maintain the proposition of having a spin-off with Castiel on his mission to find God, which would have been more effective to seeing him going slightly downhill in his faith.'
That would have been interesting.

'I wouldn't be surprised, though I would devastated that they took one of the few good female characters on the show and ruined it to further that overused plot between the brothers.'
Tell me about it. I'll admit I didn't really like the way Anna was introduced, but I had hoped they would have done more with her than turning her evil and killing her off (we really hadn't seen that before).

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Tell me about it. I'll admit I didn't really like the way Anna was introduced, but I had hoped they would have done more with her than turning her evil and killing her off (we really hadn't seen that before).

I'll be the first to admit I really hated her character, however I wish they could have done something different to make her not so annoying. Like, I liked the potential of her being the crazy human and all of that, but once they turned her into an angel who has self-entitlement issues I just wanted her off the show entirely. I hated everything about that whole storyline, it was completely Mary Sue-ish. They tried too hard to incorporate her into the plot that it just didn't work out, which is a pattern the show often has with recurring female roles (sans the few that aren't made into love interests, aka Meg and S3!Ruby for example, and the Harvelles as well).

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Like, I liked the potential of her being the crazy human and all of that, but once they turned her into an angel who has self-entitlement issues I just wanted her off the show entirely.'
True. Castiel 'fell' because he wanted to help Dean (which is pretty selfless if you think about it) but Anna fell because she wanted to feel. Although I always got the feeling that it wasn't the angels who didn't know how to feel just Anna; she didn't seem all that upset when she found out her 'parents' were dead, which would have loved to have seen explored.

'I hated everything about that whole storyline, it was completely Mary Sue-ish.'
Tell me about it. Even her name was Mary Sue-ish; there is no angel named Anna. I've seen that handwaved away that her angel name was Aniel, but on the show all the other angels called her Anna; I think even past!Uriel called her Anna. I know that's the least of that storyline's problems but they could have at least tried!

'They tried too hard to incorporate her into the plot that it just didn't work out, which is a pattern the show often has with recurring female roles (sans the few that aren't made into love interests, aka Meg and S3!Ruby for example, and the Harvelles as well).'
So very true. That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that they'll treat Lisa any better. Let's face it, they brought her back with the sole propose of being Dean's love interest next season.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Castiel 'fell' because he wanted to help Dean (which is pretty selfless if you think about it) but Anna fell because she wanted to feel. Although I always got the feeling that it wasn't the angels who didn't know how to feel just Anna

Oh, I completely agree. Also, I never got behind the whole "angels can't feel" concept the show was trying to sell in that particular episode, because all the angels we've seen had different personalities, and those personalities are based on certain emotions. I've always believed that angels do feel, just in a different way than humans do, but is shouldn't have been a stretch either way for one to be all whiny about how emotionless Heaven is. That showed how utterly selfish and self-entitled Anna was. And you're so right, she barely expressed any kind of emotion in any of the episodes we saw her in. Mostly it was the actress, who couldn't act her way through a paper bag (and when she tried to it seemed like such overacting, it was ridiculous and cringe-worthy).

Even her name was Mary Sue-ish; there is no angel named Anna. I've seen that handwaved away that her angel name was Aniel, but on the show all the other angels called her Anna; I think even past!Uriel called her Anna. I know that's the least of that storyline's problems but they could have at least tried!

GOD YES THIS! That inconsistency bugged the hell out of me, since that was her human name. I highly doubt they called her that in Heaven. I loved all the different angel names they brought up, but they couldn't even think of anything for her? All the angels had a certain Biblical significance except for her, therefore she was irrelevant from the very beginning.

So very true. That doesn't fill me with a lot of confidence that they'll treat Lisa any better. Let's face it, they brought her back with the sole propose of being Dean's love interest next season.

Definitely, which is sad that that's how they treat female roles, but it shouldn't be surprising since that's what they've been doing for a while. But it's still frustrating that they just don't understand we don't want that, and that's what gets people to think we hate the women on the show when it's not them, it's what the writers are doing to them. How a character is handled is much different than just saying "omg a female is on the show let's burn them!" I mean, the show is mainly male-oriented and has been since the beginning, but they've shown that they just cannot handle incorporating a strong female lead without making them a romantic interest. Why can't there be a more neutral females on the show that expresses no interest in the boys whatsoever? Is it really that difficult?

Heh, sorry for ranting there. I get on my soapbox sometimes.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Heh, sorry for ranting there. I get on my soapbox sometimes.'
No need to say sorry. I like your rants, mostly because it's the stuff I rant about to.

'Also, I never got behind the whole "angels can't feel" concept the show was trying to sell in that particular episode, because all the angels we've seen had different personalities, and those personalities are based on certain emotions.'
Uriel did seem like a very angry angel.

'Mostly it was the actress, who couldn't act her way through a paper bag (and when she tried to it seemed like such overacting, it was ridiculous and cringe-worthy).'
Sad but true. I've seen a couple of clips of her on Mad Men and she comes off as very flat in that to. Why dies she emphasize random word? What made it even worse is that Jensen and Misha can act circles around her and it REALLY showed. Which brings another complaint; why are they so good at casting male characters, but when it comes to female characters they're REALLY hit or miss?

'I loved all the different angel names they brought up, but they couldn't even think of anything for her? All the angels had a certain Biblical significance except for her, therefore she was irrelevant from the very beginning.'
True. I've heard that Anne means Grace and she was originally going to give her grace to Dean once she took over Cas' job of being Dean's angel, but since that supposed storyline never happened it's just strange. Even after they changed her storyline they still could have called her Aniel. Aniel even fits her as a used-to-be-fallen angel because it means 'breaks old patterns'. The fact that they didn't even brother filling in that plot hole makes me think the only thing they had planned for her was for her to be Dean's love interest. Who knows maybe she would have taken Lisa's love interest role to.

'I mean, the show is mainly male-oriented and has been since the beginning, but they've shown that they just cannot handle incorporating a strong female lead without making them a romantic interest. Why can't there be a more neutral females on the show that expresses no interest in the boys whatsoever? Is it really that difficult?'
Agreed, I don't like most of the female characters, not because they're women but because they're just not all that well written. I kind of wish the writers would use the Ripley rule (Ripley from Aliens was originally going to be a man but they changed her to a woman and kept her personality basically the same) for writing female characters (i.e. write them the same way they write men). I like Mary for example because she might have been John's wife and Sam and Dean's mom but that wasn't all she was; I always thought making her a hunter who wanted a normal life like Sam did was a cool twist. I still love Mary's 'get away from my son' scene in Home.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Uriel did seem like a very angry angel.

Yes, he did. He had anger and despised humanity, even Zachariah expressed a certain smugness to his character. Which is why I don't hold that notion of angels being emotionless to be canonically correct. It was just another sob-story for Anna to tell as an excuse about why she chose to become a human in the first place. Again, for selfish reasons.

Which brings another complaint; why are they so good at casting male characters, but when it comes to female characters they're REALLY hit or miss?

I honestly don't know. It's another issue the show continues to have and doesn't bother to fix. It's not unknown that he mistreat and mishandle the representation of females on the show through the writing, but couldn't they try to find some actresses that could at least make the roles more tolerable? I mean, sometimes when the writing sucks an actor can really improve how it's written by how they portray the role they're in (like, how many actors could have delivered the "raised you from perdition" line like Misha did without sounding cheesy?) Some of the actresses they get just don't get it right, and it's sad.

With Julie McNiven well, it's sad because she seems to be a nice person in real life and has personality, she just cannot transcend it into any performance she gives. It's like EMOTE SOMETHING! MAKE ME BELIEVE YOU'RE NOT AN EMOTIONLESS ROBOT THAT CAN ONLY SPEAK IN MONOTONE, JFC!

I've heard that Anne means Grace and she was originally going to give her grace to Dean once she took over Cas' job of being Dean's angel, but since that supposed storyline never happened it's just strange.

Man, I'm so glad they ditched that storyline entirely, I think that would have made me cringe every single time she appeared on the screen if it happened. Besides, we all know that Castiel has been and will always be Dean's angel. I mean, with all the connection and bonding and him dragging Dean out of Hell and all, it wouldn't seem right to trade places with someone that hardly had any kind of chemistry with Dean at all from that one episode they tried selling them having a "connection", which was just painful to get through because again, zero emoting from the actress.

Despite my feelings about the character, I do think the fallen angel concept was a wasted opportunity. I feel like they could have done more with it had the entire storyline been changed to actually fit into the plot and have some relevancy. Then again, they had Lucifer who was also a fallen angel. But even with that they still didn't get much into detail about Lucifer and his motivations and his relationship with his family and whatnot. Such a waste, really.

I kind of wish the writers would use the Ripley rule (Ripley from Aliens was originally going to be a man but they changed her to a woman and kept her personality basically the same) for writing female characters (i.e. write them the same way they write men).

*nods* I completely agree with you about the Ripley rule. I don't think it's impossible for them to write a female character like they would a male character. In fact, the original concept for Jo was to have her be more gutsy and ballsy, but they changed it for whatever reason. They just cannot write for female roles, so I wish they could reverse it and write a role that could be embodied by any gender and just have them be neutralized without being an excuse for them to be placed just for the purpose of getting it on with the main male characters.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I honestly don't know. It's another issue the show continues to have and doesn't bother to fix.'
I've pretty much chalked it up to Megan Fox syndrome; as long as an actress is pretty it doesn't matter if she can act or not. Which sadly is a problem Hollywood seems to have in general. The only thing Sera ever said about Julie was that she had nice hair; that really told me all I needed to know.

'I mean, sometimes when the writing sucks an actor can really improve how it's written by how they portray the role they're in (like, how many actors could have delivered the "raised you from perdition" line like Misha did without sounding cheesy?) Some of the actresses they get just don't get it right, and it's sad.'
It is sad. They really lucked out with Misha, he took a line that could have come off as so cheesy and (in my opinion) made it sound kind of intimate.

'Man, I'm so glad they ditched that storyline entirely, I think that would have made me cringe every single time she appeared on the screen if it happened.'
I would have hated it too. It's like you said, the writers really took the time to build a connection between Dean and Cas (the chemistry between Jensen and Misha didn't hurt either) but with Dean and Anna they tried to force a connection and make it seem deeper than it was; a Titanic inspired love scene doth not a connection make.

'But even with that they still didn't get much into detail about Lucifer and his motivations and his relationship with his family and whatnot. Such a waste, really.'
Such a waste indeed.

'In fact, the original concept for Jo was to have her be more gutsy and ballsy, but they changed it for whatever reason.'
What I heard was that because Bella was ballsy and the fans didn't really like her, Kripke got the idea that no one would like ballsy Jo either.

'They just cannot write for female roles, so I wish they could reverse it and write a role that could be embodied by any gender and just have them be neutralized without being an excuse for them to be placed just for the purpose of getting it on with the main male characters.'
Agreed. I think that's why I've always liked Meg so much; she's been played by both a man (Sam!Meg has always been personal favorite because it looked like Jared had so much fun in that role) and women. Although the fact that it looked like she was going to kiss Cas in Abandon All Hope just came off as weird.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

The only thing Sera ever said about Julie was that she had nice hair; that really told me all I needed to know.

That really shows how much Sera cares about the substantial parts of the show, doesn't it? :/

but with Dean and Anna they tried to force a connection and make it seem deeper than it was; a Titanic inspired love scene doth not a connection make.

God, that was something I needed brain!bleach and eye!bleach for. If there was anything to really hate about that episode, that entire scene really solidified why it's the most hated one of out S4. It practically ruined the memorable Titanic scene for me. It just made absolutely no sense to add that in there. All of Supernatural's sex scenes are rather pointless and unnecessary though, in my opinion. It kind of cheapens the show and is only for those shallow individuals that want to look at the shirtlessness of Jared or Jensen, in fact there are people that openly admit to only liking the episode for that scene alone. Which is sad and pitiful, and quite frankly objectifying in many ways, tbh.

I mean, it is possible to do shirtless scenes without reducing to something so ridiculous and and cause second-hand embarrassment like that (ex. Castiel's shirtless scene in "Point Of No Return", where it actually had something to do with the plot).

What I heard was that because Bella was ballsy and the fans didn't really like her, Kripke got the idea that no one would like ballsy Jo either.

People didn't like Bela because she was irrelevant to the plot, until her very last episode which was only a little brief background to try and gain some sympathy, and also because whenever she appeared they dumbed down the boy's intelligence several notches. I would have been nice had they created Bela's character to be intelligent and crafty without reducing the Winchesters to babbling idiots, which again calls to the main problem that they can't write female roles that don't match in sync with the boys. Like they can't be equals. Also, Kripke even stated that he felt Bela didn't fit the show either and that's why he wrote her off.

I think had Jo been more ballsy, but still managed to still be herself as we knew her from the beginning (if that makes any sense), I think people would have been less malicious towards her. I never had a problem with Jo and had wished they furthered her character development more, or gave her more episodes to see that growth in between and all, because while she was amateurish there was great potential that they just placed on the side-burner until they brought her back, definitely more ballsy and matured, only to kill her off.

I think that's why I've always liked Meg so much; she's been played by both a man (Sam!Meg has always been personal favorite because it looked like Jared had so much fun in that role) and women. Although the fact that it looked like she was going to kiss Cas in Abandon All Hope just came off as weird.

I like Meg for the same reasons, too. Though yeah, I agree about how it looked like Meg was going to kiss him which I thought, weird. Then again, it kind of goes for the characteristics of demons in general that they kind of are sadistically playful (and how Meg in S1 was flirtatious and made out with Sam just for the hell of it). Although I would have figured she would have been more scared of Castiel being an angel kinda like how Ruby had reacted initially, so her being all nonchalant with him was kind strange considering that aspect alone, unless knowing how powerless he was made her reconsider? idk

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'That really shows how much Sera cares about the substantial parts of the show, doesn't it? :/'
It does. I'm still not convinced that she's the right person to be the show runner.

'It kind of cheapens the show and is only for those shallow individuals that want to look at the shirtlessness of Jared or Jensen, in fact there are people that openly admit to only liking the episode for that scene alone. Which is sad and pitiful, and quite frankly objectifying in many ways, tbh.'
It is sad. Like I've said before I've run into those people so many times.

'I mean, it is possible to do shirtless scenes without reducing to something so ridiculous and and cause second-hand embarrassment like that (ex. Castiel's shirtless scene in "Point Of No Return", where it actually had something to do with the plot).'
Oh I loved Cas' shirtless scene for that reason. With Sera in charge I'm worried that season six will be overrun with fanservice (she makes no secret of being a Sam!girl) which don't get me wrong is good, but I need more than that. If Dean's first scene in season six is him in bed with Lisa I can't say I'll be all that surprised; although now that I think about it, they could make that into a nice call back to Dean being in bed with his girlfriend in What Is and What Should Never Be. Lisa even looks a little like Dean's AU!girlfriend. Okay, now I'm kind of hoping they do that.

'People didn't like Bela because she was irrelevant to the plot, until her very last episode which was only a little brief background to try and gain some sympathy, and also because whenever she appeared they dumbed down the boy's intelligence several notches.'
True.

'All of Supernatural's sex scenes are rather pointless and unnecessary though, in my opinion.'
Tell me about it. In the commentary for 'What Is and What Should Never Be' Kripke talked about how TPTB wanted Dean to have a sex scene with his AU!girlfriend but Kripke couldn't figure out how to work that into the episode and he told them he wouldn't do it, which is something I've always been grateful for. Apparently the sex scene would have taken place while she was getting ready go to work, talk about pointless.

'because while she was amateurish there was great potential that they just placed on the side-burner until they brought her back, definitely more ballsy and matured, only to kill her off.'
I know. I loved that she turned down Dean's last night on Earth sex offer.

'Although I would have figured she would have been more scared of Castiel being an angel kinda like how Ruby had reacted initially, so her being all nonchalant with him was kind strange considering that aspect alone, unless knowing how powerless he was made her reconsider? idk'
I always figured she thought, 'He's a weakened angel trapped in a ring of Holy Fire, what's the worst he can do?'. Obviously she didn't reckon with Cas' super angel power of outside-of-the-box thinking. For an angel who's supposed to be completely obedient, he's really good at that. I think I'll always love his 'just so you know why I can't help' scene for that reason.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

It does. I'm still not convinced that she's the right person to be the show runner.

Preaching to the choir, bb.

With Sera in charge I'm worried that season six will be overrun with fanservice (she makes no secret of being a Sam!girl) which don't get me wrong is good, but I need more than that.

It would be more fanservice to her own fangirling needs rather than to the fanbase, since I don't think she follows with the slash innuendoing the show frequently calls out to at times without breaking away from the main plot of the story. Even though I am cringing at the thought of the sixth season opening up like that, it would be an interesting callback to that, and also a callback to when the series first began with Sam and Jessica together before Dean came back to have Sam back on the hunting job again. Since you know, they are talking about this being more of the S1-style, that would also make sense, even if I hate the "returning to the basics" routine they want to do.

I know. I loved that she turned down Dean's last night on Earth sex offer.

I loved that too! :D I was so happy because not only was she right about having self-respect and dignity, but it really makes the entire "last night on Earth" line incredibly lame because it keeps getting repeated over and over, and they acknowledged it there.

Obviously she didn't reckon with Cas' super angel power of outside-of-the-box thinking. For an angel who's supposed to be completely obedient, he's really good at that. I think I'll always love his 'just so you know why I can't help' scene for that reason.

That's one of the many things I love about Castiel, he thinks outside of the box, he looks for alternative routes. He bended the rules to help Dean in anyway he could, and with the fifth season, having rebelled against Heaven and with limited powers, he seemed more resourceful and determined with his cunning schemes that nobody would have seen coming. He's shown that multiple times, too. From his trickery on Meg, trapping Raphael in holy fire, to the banishing sigil on his chest, and many others. Castiel, never change from your BAMFery. <3

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'It would be more fanservice to her own fangirling needs rather than to the fanbase, since I don't think she follows with the slash innuendoing the show frequently calls out to at times without breaking away from the main plot of the story.'
Good point. I could see her giving Sam a girlfriend just so she has an excuse to write him into a bunch of contrived sex scenes. Chuck might have been Kripke's author avatar, but I'm convinced Becky was Sera's.

'Even though I am cringing at the thought of the sixth season opening up like that, it would be an interesting callback to that, and also a callback to when the series first began with Sam and Jessica together before Dean came back to have Sam back on the hunting job again.'
I'm cringing to, but knowing these writers that really is the best we could hope for. At least a callback would make the scene not so pointless.

'Since you know, they are talking about this being more of the S1-style, that would also make sense, even if I hate the "returning to the basics" routine they want to do.'
You're not the only one who hates it; for all of Dawn O's talk about how Supernatural gained so many new fans, it doesn't make sense, but that a lot of what TPTB in do general doesn't make sense. I do have to wonder what I'll do with Lisa since they will be going that route. If they don't end up killing Lisa off they'll either A) have Lisa split with Dean because she doesn't want to wait around for a guy who'll just keep blowing in and out of her and Ben's life when he gets tired of hunting or much more likely B) they will have her wait around for Dean to come back (just like they implied she did after her first appearance). I'd also have a option C), Lisa and Ben travel with Dean, but like that would EVER happen. I would really hate B; not only would I hate that that would turn Lisa into such a doormat, I would really hate that Dean gets even more man-pain AND the writer wouldn't actually have to develop Lisa as a character. They could at least try to pretend Lisa isn't just a prop.

'That's one of the many things I love about Castiel, he thinks outside of the box, he looks for alternative routes.'
In my head Cas was the one who rescued Dean from Hell because while the other angels were pounding on the gates of Hell, Cas just walked around to the side entrance and scoped Dean up. Cas got the key from Crowley after he won a game of Connect Four Million. Cas is so good at thinking outside the box that he won by going diagonally. Needless to say, Crowley was kicked out of hell after that.

'From his trickery on Meg, trapping Raphael in holy fire, to the banishing sigil on his chest, and many others. Castiel, never change from your BAMFery. <3'
Oh yes. I thought the holy fire molotov cocktail was inspired.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Chuck might have been Kripke's author avatar, but I'm convinced Becky was Sera's.

Oh, there's no doubt that was blatantly intentional.

I would really hate B; not only would I hate that that would turn Lisa into such a doormat, I would really hate that Dean gets even more man-pain AND the writer wouldn't actually have to develop Lisa as a character. They could at least try to pretend Lisa isn't just a prop.

See, this is why having Lisa brought back was a really horrible and pointless idea. Either way they're going to be completely neglecting her as a character, and really it's kind of disrespectful because it does make it seem like she'll be waiting again for Dean to finish something to come back to her like some desperate housewife, and if she goes along with things that'll be placing herself and her son in danger, and we know that Dean doesn't to do that. So really, what's the point if they're just going to abandon her anyway? The only logical thing I see happening is for Lisa and Dean to part ways knowing it wouldn't ever work out, and Dean going off hunting again. Because honestly, anything else would be headdesk!worthy, I can't even begin to tell you.

With this show though, again I reiterate, they can't really try to focus on handling more characters outside of the Winchesters, so of course they're going to either mishandle Lisa like they always do with these background characters to just further Dean's story, and possibly end up killing her to further it even more.

In my head Cas was the one who rescued Dean from Hell because while the other angels were pounding on the gates of Hell, Cas just walked around to the side entrance and scoped Dean up. Cas got the key from Crowley after he won a game of Connect Four Million. Cas is so good at thinking outside the box that he won by going diagonally. Needless to say, Crowley was kicked out of hell after that.

LOL! I like this personal theory of yours, bb!

As much as I would have loved them to elaborate on precisely how Castiel rescued Dean from Hell, the upside is that I've seen so many different unique scenarios people have thought up on how it happened. From crack to heavily dramatically written out scenes, and I think that's great. Left open to the imagination, especially if it connects Dean/Castiel deeper than before. :)

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Either way they're going to be completely neglecting her as a character, and really it's kind of disrespectful because it does make it seem like she'll be waiting again for Dean to finish something to come back to her like some desperate housewife, and if she goes along with things that'll be placing herself and her son in danger, and we know that Dean doesn't to do that.'
Oh, I just had a really horrible thought. What if because of the rumored time skip, Lisa is actually married to Dean in season six and instead of telling her about the hunting he lies to her about it, which would make NO sense for Dean WHAT SO EVER, but these are the same writers that had Bobby's wife say when you love someone you protect them by lying to them. They could even handwave away Ben and Lisa being in danger by saying angels (or at the very least Cas) are protecting them.

'With this show though, again I reiterate, they can't really try to focus on handling more characters outside of the Winchesters, so of course they're going to either mishandle Lisa like they always do with these background characters to just further Dean's story, and possibly end up killing her to further it even more.'
Until the writers prove otherwise, for me it's not a question of weather or not they'll ruin Lisa, it's a question of just how badly will they ruin Lisa.

'Oh, there's no doubt that was blatantly intentional.'
Glad I'm not the only one who saw it. That brings a whole new meta level to Chuck and Becky dating. I've never been able to figure out if Becky was written as so over the top and down right crazy because Kripke doesn't like Sam!Girls (I'm convinced he's the biggest Dean!Boy of them all and that's why he didn't make fun of the Dean fans) or because he just doesn't like fangirls in general. The fanboys Damien and Barnes were not quite so over the top and instead of coming off as a joke, they came off as rather sympathetic, at least I thought they did.

'LOL! I like this personal theory of yours, bb!'
Thanks. I've already got some of it worked out for a crack fic I'll write sooner or later. The gates of Hell are made of dirt and fruitcakes, and the connect four-million rack (I think that's what you call the thing that holds the checkers) stretches for miles and miles and miles and one more mile after that.

'As much as I would have loved them to elaborate on precisely how Castiel rescued Dean from Hell, the upside is that I've seen so many different unique scenarios people have thought up on how it happened. From crack to heavily dramatically written out scenes, and I think that's great. Left open to the imagination, especially if it connects Dean/Castiel deeper than before. :)'
I think they're great to.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

What if because of the rumored time skip, Lisa is actually married to Dean in season six and instead of telling her about the hunting he lies to her about it, which would make NO sense for Dean WHAT SO EVER, but these are the same writers that had Bobby's wife say when you love someone you protect them by lying to them. They could even handwave away Ben and Lisa being in danger by saying angels (or at the very least Cas) are protecting them.

I AM CRINGING IN HORROR AT THE THOUGHT! D: Seriously though, that would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and really wouldn't that just be repeating history? Because Mary didn't tell John about her hunting background which ended up creating more damage than anything? Plus, again, there's already the repeating the cycle of having Dean seeing Lisa and Ben like John did with Adam and it's like, I know they're father and son but isn't the whole point of Dean's development is to not make those same mistakes? If all this turns out to be true, they made no progression to his character/the Winchester story at all. Which imo really pisses me off.

Until the writers prove otherwise, for me it's not a question of weather or not they'll ruin Lisa, it's a question of just how badly will they ruin Lisa.

Yeah, for me they already kinda ruined her by randomly adding her as a replacement of Dean's destiny storyline that they just abandoned altogether to give something for him to fall back on. Which is really disrespecting not only Lisa but Dean as well, because after everything that's what happens? *shakes head*

I've never been able to figure out if Becky was written as so over the top and down right crazy because Kripke doesn't like Sam!Girls (I'm convinced he's the biggest Dean!Boy of them all and that's why he didn't make fun of the Dean fans) or because he just doesn't like fangirls in general.

I think he was more or less poking fun at the batshit crazy Supernatural fangirls and their obsessions with slashfic or, more specifically, Sam/Dean and definitely the obsessive Sam!fangirls in general. Because lets face it, this fandom has loads of batshittery of fans and the show has pretty much added fandom into canon anyway, so I think that's what he was drawing from. And honestly? It's pretty accurate. Of course, adding the Gamble-insert into Becky was obvious because that's precisely how she is regarding Sam in general (and dismissing Dean entirely, just like Becky did when she met them). But I do agree that Damien and Barnes were more down-to-earth and saner than the fangirls.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'If all this turns out to be true, they made no progression to his character/the Winchester story at all. Which imo really pisses me off.'
Me too, but than I've always been a little frustrated by Dean's lack of character development in general. Even after all these years Dean is still soooo co-dependent on Sam. I'll admit when Dean told Zach that he should just kill them BOTH because Dean will never yes, I was pleased; I thought once Zach removed Sam's lungs Dean was going to cave. Sadly he went right back to being co-dependent.

'Yeah, for me they already kinda ruined her by randomly adding her as a replacement of Dean's destiny storyline that they just abandoned altogether to give something for him to fall back on.'
True. I might have been able to buy Dean wants a family with Lisa IF she had at least appeared in his personal Heaven or something or if he had at least mentioned her outside of Dream A Little Dream.

'Which is really disrespecting not only Lisa but Dean as well, because after everything that's what happens? *shakes head*'
Tell me about it. Not only has he changed, he also spent 40 years in Hell, so the fact he still remembers Gumby-girl is just strange. If writers try to say that Dean and Lisa have such a deep powerful connection *obligatory eye roll* because Ben really is his son, I might throw something at my tv because that would imply that Lisa is only important because she 'gave' Dean a kid. To all the people who say of course Lisa's only important because of how she relates to Dean's story because Dean is a main character, I say Cas was ONLY important because he pulled Dean from Hell, but the writers still managed to give him character development so he wasn't JUST a prop in Dean's story.

'Of course, adding the Gamble-insert into Becky was obvious because that's precisely how she is regarding Sam in general (and dismissing Dean entirely, just like Becky did when she met them).'
Oh Sera just dismissing Dean is another thing I'm worried about in season six. Although I'm not nearly as worried about that as I'm that Dawn O said they have more seasons after season six planned. With Smallville ending next season, I kind of figured SPN would at least have a season seven, but that doesn't mean I like the idea. I'd be more hopeful, but the CW has a bit of a track record for taking popular shows and running them into the ground. If worse comes worse, I'm just going to consider everything after season five some kind of weird AU.

'It's pretty accurate.'
Sad but true. I remember after MATEOTB when a girl said she was so pissed that Dean thought Wincest was sick (did they honestly expect him and Sam to be okay with it?) that she was going to get her SPN tattoo removed.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

To all the people who say of course Lisa's only important because of how she relates to Dean's story because Dean is a main character, I say Cas was ONLY important because he pulled Dean from Hell, but the writers still managed to give him character development so he wasn't JUST a prop in Dean's story.

I hate that. I hate the people (small few of individuals I've seen, anyway) that try to defend or justify Lisa's return for that reasoning alone, especially the whole dream thing in "Dream A Little Dream Of Me" (which is more a projection of his wishes to have a family, but something he couldn't have particularly now with him being so psychologically fucked up after 40 years in Hell, and even before then). It's as if it's completely okay to treat a minor female character like a backdrop prop to further Dean's storyline or growth, which isn't really going forward at all and just standing still and repeating history, in a sense. Out of the many flaws Supernatural has, that's something that really irks me the most. There's no respect for Lisa besides making her that desperate housewife, which again I say is disgusting and insulting on so many levels, I can't even. :/

If they add some respectable character development for her then I'll lighten up some, but I have little faith in the writers to actually do that without screwing things up even more.

Although I'm not nearly as worried about that as I'm that Dawn O said they have more seasons after season six planned.

Which means Kripke has completely sold out. He wanted his show to end with a bang, and with having sold his soul over the CW he's a completely sellout of his own show. *shakes head* Should have stuck to your guns before Sera Gamble/Dawn O run your baby into the ground, yo. If they fuck shit up I'm going to cease watching. I'm sorry, but I care too deeply about the characters and the story to see it getting overrun by mindless storylines and plots just to see more seasons.

I remember after MATEOTB when a girl said she was so pissed that Dean thought Wincest was sick (did they honestly expect him and Sam to be okay with it?) that she was going to get her SPN tattoo removed.

lol, the batshittery of obsessed fans never fails to amuse me.

I remember a lot of Wincest fans were pissed at Kripke daring to write about them in the show, like it was a misrepresentation when we all know it's true. Also, the cast and crew have even admitted openly to be amused with it and find the Sam/Dean parts of fandom utterly ridiculous. Hence, why it was written as such. YES FANDOM, THE SHOW HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST YOU AND YOUR WACKY PAIRINGS! BE ENRAGED! XD

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'(which is more a projection of his wishes to have a family, but something he couldn't have particularly now with him being so psychologically fucked up after 40 years in Hell, and even before then).'
I've always thought Lisa really was more of a symbol of the life Dean thought he wanted than someone he actually loved; how could he, he barely knew her. She was literally his dream girl.

'It's as if it's completely okay to treat a minor female character like a backdrop prop to further Dean's storyline or growth, which isn't really going forward at all and just standing still and repeating history, in a sense. Out of the many flaws Supernatural has, that's something that really irks me the most. There's no respect for Lisa besides making her that desperate housewife, which again I say is disgusting and insulting on so many levels, I can't even. :/'
So true. This show does have a a history of using women as props to farther the story of men. I heard that in the original draft of the pilot episode, instead of Jess dieing Sam just leaves her; I've never really been sure what to think about that.

'Which means Kripke has completely sold out. He wanted his show to end with a bang, and with having sold his soul over the CW he's a completely sellout of his own show.'
True, but sadly he wouldn't be the first writer to do that. I'm convinced that Joss put out the Buffy season 8 comic just for the money; the characters go from OOC to WTH, the story makes no sense and I've seen better drawn fan-made comics.

'If they fuck shit up I'm going to cease watching.'
Me too. I've heard people say that even if the show becomes bad they'll keep watching because they've invested too much time and effort to stop, but I'm not one of them. I'll give season six a fair shot, but if it's as bad as I fear it will be I'll just have to watch something else. I watch tv to be entertained, not to bash my head against a wall. If it does go bad, I hope Jensen and Jared get out while the getting is good, but like I said before I can see them just doing the show for the steady paycheck.

'YES FANDOM, THE SHOW HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST YOU AND YOUR WACKY PAIRINGS! BE ENRAGED! XD'
IF DEAN EVER FINDS WING!PORN ON THE SHOW AND THINKS IT'S CREEPY AND WRONG, I KNOW I'D BE ENRAGED (while I'm laughing my ass off that is). I can see it now:

Dean: Dude, what the hell?! First, it was sex with my bother and now it's sex with Cas. That's just wrong.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I've always thought Lisa really was more of a symbol of the life Dean thought he wanted than someone he actually loved; how could he, he barely knew her. She was literally his dream girl.

Exactly. And how fair to either of them if this is only just chasing a dream?

I heard that in the original draft of the pilot episode, instead of Jess dieing Sam just leaves her; I've never really been sure what to think about that.

...That would have made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I mean, Jessica dying was what drove Sam to return to hunting in the first place and his determination to hunt down the demon that killed her. Making him leave her would have made Sam unlikable from the beginning, and given him no motivation to be hunting. It really says something about their earlier drafts on treating women on the show. I mean, granted I think we already knew this, but the fact is we fans keep returning to the show time and again despite that. It's like, we acknowledge it but it doesn't matter because some will continue to watch just for the boys (whether story-wise or just for shallow reasons) so it makes me wonder about the reversal of the situation the audience/fans have towards this issue?

True, but sadly he wouldn't be the first writer to do that. I'm convinced that Joss put out the Buffy season 8 comic just for the money; the characters go from OOC to WTH, the story makes no sense and I've seen better drawn fan-made comics.

Hmmm, I don't know. Joss wanted to continue the Buffyverse regardless, since he's always had ideas for the show that couldn't continue on in television format so escaping to another medium was the answer. And I don't think creating comics is just for the money because he does have those creative ideas for storylines that never were addressed/explored on the show. I do agree, based on what I've heard from the S8 comics, it does seem OOC for certain things to have happened and it makes you wonder why. But I don't think comic book continuations are equal to selling out.

I've heard people say that even if the show becomes bad they'll keep watching because they've invested too much time and effort to stop, but I'm not one of them.

Me neither. I think anyone that loves a show that much shouldn't, and probably wouldn't, want to continue seeing it being disrespected and going downhill, because it's just heartbreaking. I know shows do go through rough patches, but I honestly cannot stomach being letdown time and again by a show in hopes to gets better.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Exactly. And how fair to either of them if this is only just chasing a dream?'
Not very fair at all to all of them if you ask me. I also feel sorry for Ben (who the writers seemed to have forgotten about) who might end up seeing Dean as a father figure. I mean even the writers implied that Dean didn't go back to Lisa because he loved her, but because he promised Sam that he would. Which once again makes Lisa just a prop. I really hope that if Lisa does call it quits with Dean that the next time Dean comes back she's married to someone who actually loves her and Ben, but than I was hoping for that when Lisa showed up the last time.

'It really says something about their earlier drafts on treating women on the show.'
It does, it really does.

'But I don't think comic book continuations are equal to selling out.'
I don't know, I guess I just thought it would be better.

'I mean, granted I think we already knew this, but the fact is we fans keep returning to the show time and again despite that.'
Yeah, but I've seen people hand-wave away the misogynistic undertones so much it's not even funny.

'but I honestly cannot stomach being letdown time and again by a show in hopes to gets better.'
Tell me about it. I started watching As The World Turns because of its gay storyline, but when it became clear that the writing in general was awful (I swear Paul Ryan has come back from the dead more than Cas) and Luke (the gay character) was only going to be on a few times a month even after he got a boyfriend, I gave up.