This is where things get interesting.

[rogueslayer452]

More Legend of the Seeker news: from this post here gives details about how to contact STARZ, since it seems the more people expressing their demands about wanting the show the more probable it'll become a surefire deal. Still not getting my hopes up just yet, but from the sound of things this definitely looks promising especially from the report the poster gave about talking to someone from the network there was so optimism there. *still crossing fingers*

In other news, M. Night Shyamalan continues to be a douchebag. Also, this is the first I've heard of him possibly having been close to directing the Harry Potter movies. I shudder to imagine how that would have turned out...

I still haven't read any spoilers whatsoever and I'd like to keep it that way so please don't tell me anything, but judging from people's reactions to what has been released I think I might take a break from Supernatural for a while? I don't know. I've just not been incredibly enthusiastic about anything with the sixth season, the fact that they even have a sixth season leaves a bitter taste in my mouth. This is what I dreaded would happen, actually. I want to be reassured that this is just an over-exaggeration, that it's not as bad as it seems to be, but I can't help but feel I'm going to be in disappointment and rage with whatever is being planned for it, and mostly because of Sera Gamble but that's another rant altogether. They really should have ended it properly with the Apocalypse, because right now I'm just kind of over the Sam and Dean melodramatics. I'd take an angel mythology spin-off over hearing the same-old Winchester angsty manpain anyday, to be brutally honest with you.

I'm not leaving fandom or anything, this is just how I'm feeling lately. It might change, it might not, only time will tell. I'm still sticking around, especially in the Dean/Castiel and Castiel/Misha Collins parts of fandom because, how can I not? I love you guys, sfm. ♥

This is half the reason why I've been going to other fandoms more recently, to kind of get my mind away from possible trainwreckage and onto new shiny toys. Which, btw, himhilien? Totally am downloading all of Avatar: The Last Airbender right now. I planned on doing that anyway since I am really liking the series, though since we no longer have OnDemand I can no longer see the random bubble trivia pop-ups. So I has a sad. :(

Comments

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'It would be more fanservice to her own fangirling needs rather than to the fanbase, since I don't think she follows with the slash innuendoing the show frequently calls out to at times without breaking away from the main plot of the story.'
Good point. I could see her giving Sam a girlfriend just so she has an excuse to write him into a bunch of contrived sex scenes. Chuck might have been Kripke's author avatar, but I'm convinced Becky was Sera's.

'Even though I am cringing at the thought of the sixth season opening up like that, it would be an interesting callback to that, and also a callback to when the series first began with Sam and Jessica together before Dean came back to have Sam back on the hunting job again.'
I'm cringing to, but knowing these writers that really is the best we could hope for. At least a callback would make the scene not so pointless.

'Since you know, they are talking about this being more of the S1-style, that would also make sense, even if I hate the "returning to the basics" routine they want to do.'
You're not the only one who hates it; for all of Dawn O's talk about how Supernatural gained so many new fans, it doesn't make sense, but that a lot of what TPTB in do general doesn't make sense. I do have to wonder what I'll do with Lisa since they will be going that route. If they don't end up killing Lisa off they'll either A) have Lisa split with Dean because she doesn't want to wait around for a guy who'll just keep blowing in and out of her and Ben's life when he gets tired of hunting or much more likely B) they will have her wait around for Dean to come back (just like they implied she did after her first appearance). I'd also have a option C), Lisa and Ben travel with Dean, but like that would EVER happen. I would really hate B; not only would I hate that that would turn Lisa into such a doormat, I would really hate that Dean gets even more man-pain AND the writer wouldn't actually have to develop Lisa as a character. They could at least try to pretend Lisa isn't just a prop.

'That's one of the many things I love about Castiel, he thinks outside of the box, he looks for alternative routes.'
In my head Cas was the one who rescued Dean from Hell because while the other angels were pounding on the gates of Hell, Cas just walked around to the side entrance and scoped Dean up. Cas got the key from Crowley after he won a game of Connect Four Million. Cas is so good at thinking outside the box that he won by going diagonally. Needless to say, Crowley was kicked out of hell after that.

'From his trickery on Meg, trapping Raphael in holy fire, to the banishing sigil on his chest, and many others. Castiel, never change from your BAMFery. <3'
Oh yes. I thought the holy fire molotov cocktail was inspired.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Chuck might have been Kripke's author avatar, but I'm convinced Becky was Sera's.

Oh, there's no doubt that was blatantly intentional.

I would really hate B; not only would I hate that that would turn Lisa into such a doormat, I would really hate that Dean gets even more man-pain AND the writer wouldn't actually have to develop Lisa as a character. They could at least try to pretend Lisa isn't just a prop.

See, this is why having Lisa brought back was a really horrible and pointless idea. Either way they're going to be completely neglecting her as a character, and really it's kind of disrespectful because it does make it seem like she'll be waiting again for Dean to finish something to come back to her like some desperate housewife, and if she goes along with things that'll be placing herself and her son in danger, and we know that Dean doesn't to do that. So really, what's the point if they're just going to abandon her anyway? The only logical thing I see happening is for Lisa and Dean to part ways knowing it wouldn't ever work out, and Dean going off hunting again. Because honestly, anything else would be headdesk!worthy, I can't even begin to tell you.

With this show though, again I reiterate, they can't really try to focus on handling more characters outside of the Winchesters, so of course they're going to either mishandle Lisa like they always do with these background characters to just further Dean's story, and possibly end up killing her to further it even more.

In my head Cas was the one who rescued Dean from Hell because while the other angels were pounding on the gates of Hell, Cas just walked around to the side entrance and scoped Dean up. Cas got the key from Crowley after he won a game of Connect Four Million. Cas is so good at thinking outside the box that he won by going diagonally. Needless to say, Crowley was kicked out of hell after that.

LOL! I like this personal theory of yours, bb!

As much as I would have loved them to elaborate on precisely how Castiel rescued Dean from Hell, the upside is that I've seen so many different unique scenarios people have thought up on how it happened. From crack to heavily dramatically written out scenes, and I think that's great. Left open to the imagination, especially if it connects Dean/Castiel deeper than before. :)

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Either way they're going to be completely neglecting her as a character, and really it's kind of disrespectful because it does make it seem like she'll be waiting again for Dean to finish something to come back to her like some desperate housewife, and if she goes along with things that'll be placing herself and her son in danger, and we know that Dean doesn't to do that.'
Oh, I just had a really horrible thought. What if because of the rumored time skip, Lisa is actually married to Dean in season six and instead of telling her about the hunting he lies to her about it, which would make NO sense for Dean WHAT SO EVER, but these are the same writers that had Bobby's wife say when you love someone you protect them by lying to them. They could even handwave away Ben and Lisa being in danger by saying angels (or at the very least Cas) are protecting them.

'With this show though, again I reiterate, they can't really try to focus on handling more characters outside of the Winchesters, so of course they're going to either mishandle Lisa like they always do with these background characters to just further Dean's story, and possibly end up killing her to further it even more.'
Until the writers prove otherwise, for me it's not a question of weather or not they'll ruin Lisa, it's a question of just how badly will they ruin Lisa.

'Oh, there's no doubt that was blatantly intentional.'
Glad I'm not the only one who saw it. That brings a whole new meta level to Chuck and Becky dating. I've never been able to figure out if Becky was written as so over the top and down right crazy because Kripke doesn't like Sam!Girls (I'm convinced he's the biggest Dean!Boy of them all and that's why he didn't make fun of the Dean fans) or because he just doesn't like fangirls in general. The fanboys Damien and Barnes were not quite so over the top and instead of coming off as a joke, they came off as rather sympathetic, at least I thought they did.

'LOL! I like this personal theory of yours, bb!'
Thanks. I've already got some of it worked out for a crack fic I'll write sooner or later. The gates of Hell are made of dirt and fruitcakes, and the connect four-million rack (I think that's what you call the thing that holds the checkers) stretches for miles and miles and miles and one more mile after that.

'As much as I would have loved them to elaborate on precisely how Castiel rescued Dean from Hell, the upside is that I've seen so many different unique scenarios people have thought up on how it happened. From crack to heavily dramatically written out scenes, and I think that's great. Left open to the imagination, especially if it connects Dean/Castiel deeper than before. :)'
I think they're great to.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

What if because of the rumored time skip, Lisa is actually married to Dean in season six and instead of telling her about the hunting he lies to her about it, which would make NO sense for Dean WHAT SO EVER, but these are the same writers that had Bobby's wife say when you love someone you protect them by lying to them. They could even handwave away Ben and Lisa being in danger by saying angels (or at the very least Cas) are protecting them.

I AM CRINGING IN HORROR AT THE THOUGHT! D: Seriously though, that would make absolutely no sense whatsoever, and really wouldn't that just be repeating history? Because Mary didn't tell John about her hunting background which ended up creating more damage than anything? Plus, again, there's already the repeating the cycle of having Dean seeing Lisa and Ben like John did with Adam and it's like, I know they're father and son but isn't the whole point of Dean's development is to not make those same mistakes? If all this turns out to be true, they made no progression to his character/the Winchester story at all. Which imo really pisses me off.

Until the writers prove otherwise, for me it's not a question of weather or not they'll ruin Lisa, it's a question of just how badly will they ruin Lisa.

Yeah, for me they already kinda ruined her by randomly adding her as a replacement of Dean's destiny storyline that they just abandoned altogether to give something for him to fall back on. Which is really disrespecting not only Lisa but Dean as well, because after everything that's what happens? *shakes head*

I've never been able to figure out if Becky was written as so over the top and down right crazy because Kripke doesn't like Sam!Girls (I'm convinced he's the biggest Dean!Boy of them all and that's why he didn't make fun of the Dean fans) or because he just doesn't like fangirls in general.

I think he was more or less poking fun at the batshit crazy Supernatural fangirls and their obsessions with slashfic or, more specifically, Sam/Dean and definitely the obsessive Sam!fangirls in general. Because lets face it, this fandom has loads of batshittery of fans and the show has pretty much added fandom into canon anyway, so I think that's what he was drawing from. And honestly? It's pretty accurate. Of course, adding the Gamble-insert into Becky was obvious because that's precisely how she is regarding Sam in general (and dismissing Dean entirely, just like Becky did when she met them). But I do agree that Damien and Barnes were more down-to-earth and saner than the fangirls.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'If all this turns out to be true, they made no progression to his character/the Winchester story at all. Which imo really pisses me off.'
Me too, but than I've always been a little frustrated by Dean's lack of character development in general. Even after all these years Dean is still soooo co-dependent on Sam. I'll admit when Dean told Zach that he should just kill them BOTH because Dean will never yes, I was pleased; I thought once Zach removed Sam's lungs Dean was going to cave. Sadly he went right back to being co-dependent.

'Yeah, for me they already kinda ruined her by randomly adding her as a replacement of Dean's destiny storyline that they just abandoned altogether to give something for him to fall back on.'
True. I might have been able to buy Dean wants a family with Lisa IF she had at least appeared in his personal Heaven or something or if he had at least mentioned her outside of Dream A Little Dream.

'Which is really disrespecting not only Lisa but Dean as well, because after everything that's what happens? *shakes head*'
Tell me about it. Not only has he changed, he also spent 40 years in Hell, so the fact he still remembers Gumby-girl is just strange. If writers try to say that Dean and Lisa have such a deep powerful connection *obligatory eye roll* because Ben really is his son, I might throw something at my tv because that would imply that Lisa is only important because she 'gave' Dean a kid. To all the people who say of course Lisa's only important because of how she relates to Dean's story because Dean is a main character, I say Cas was ONLY important because he pulled Dean from Hell, but the writers still managed to give him character development so he wasn't JUST a prop in Dean's story.

'Of course, adding the Gamble-insert into Becky was obvious because that's precisely how she is regarding Sam in general (and dismissing Dean entirely, just like Becky did when she met them).'
Oh Sera just dismissing Dean is another thing I'm worried about in season six. Although I'm not nearly as worried about that as I'm that Dawn O said they have more seasons after season six planned. With Smallville ending next season, I kind of figured SPN would at least have a season seven, but that doesn't mean I like the idea. I'd be more hopeful, but the CW has a bit of a track record for taking popular shows and running them into the ground. If worse comes worse, I'm just going to consider everything after season five some kind of weird AU.

'It's pretty accurate.'
Sad but true. I remember after MATEOTB when a girl said she was so pissed that Dean thought Wincest was sick (did they honestly expect him and Sam to be okay with it?) that she was going to get her SPN tattoo removed.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

To all the people who say of course Lisa's only important because of how she relates to Dean's story because Dean is a main character, I say Cas was ONLY important because he pulled Dean from Hell, but the writers still managed to give him character development so he wasn't JUST a prop in Dean's story.

I hate that. I hate the people (small few of individuals I've seen, anyway) that try to defend or justify Lisa's return for that reasoning alone, especially the whole dream thing in "Dream A Little Dream Of Me" (which is more a projection of his wishes to have a family, but something he couldn't have particularly now with him being so psychologically fucked up after 40 years in Hell, and even before then). It's as if it's completely okay to treat a minor female character like a backdrop prop to further Dean's storyline or growth, which isn't really going forward at all and just standing still and repeating history, in a sense. Out of the many flaws Supernatural has, that's something that really irks me the most. There's no respect for Lisa besides making her that desperate housewife, which again I say is disgusting and insulting on so many levels, I can't even. :/

If they add some respectable character development for her then I'll lighten up some, but I have little faith in the writers to actually do that without screwing things up even more.

Although I'm not nearly as worried about that as I'm that Dawn O said they have more seasons after season six planned.

Which means Kripke has completely sold out. He wanted his show to end with a bang, and with having sold his soul over the CW he's a completely sellout of his own show. *shakes head* Should have stuck to your guns before Sera Gamble/Dawn O run your baby into the ground, yo. If they fuck shit up I'm going to cease watching. I'm sorry, but I care too deeply about the characters and the story to see it getting overrun by mindless storylines and plots just to see more seasons.

I remember after MATEOTB when a girl said she was so pissed that Dean thought Wincest was sick (did they honestly expect him and Sam to be okay with it?) that she was going to get her SPN tattoo removed.

lol, the batshittery of obsessed fans never fails to amuse me.

I remember a lot of Wincest fans were pissed at Kripke daring to write about them in the show, like it was a misrepresentation when we all know it's true. Also, the cast and crew have even admitted openly to be amused with it and find the Sam/Dean parts of fandom utterly ridiculous. Hence, why it was written as such. YES FANDOM, THE SHOW HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST YOU AND YOUR WACKY PAIRINGS! BE ENRAGED! XD

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'(which is more a projection of his wishes to have a family, but something he couldn't have particularly now with him being so psychologically fucked up after 40 years in Hell, and even before then).'
I've always thought Lisa really was more of a symbol of the life Dean thought he wanted than someone he actually loved; how could he, he barely knew her. She was literally his dream girl.

'It's as if it's completely okay to treat a minor female character like a backdrop prop to further Dean's storyline or growth, which isn't really going forward at all and just standing still and repeating history, in a sense. Out of the many flaws Supernatural has, that's something that really irks me the most. There's no respect for Lisa besides making her that desperate housewife, which again I say is disgusting and insulting on so many levels, I can't even. :/'
So true. This show does have a a history of using women as props to farther the story of men. I heard that in the original draft of the pilot episode, instead of Jess dieing Sam just leaves her; I've never really been sure what to think about that.

'Which means Kripke has completely sold out. He wanted his show to end with a bang, and with having sold his soul over the CW he's a completely sellout of his own show.'
True, but sadly he wouldn't be the first writer to do that. I'm convinced that Joss put out the Buffy season 8 comic just for the money; the characters go from OOC to WTH, the story makes no sense and I've seen better drawn fan-made comics.

'If they fuck shit up I'm going to cease watching.'
Me too. I've heard people say that even if the show becomes bad they'll keep watching because they've invested too much time and effort to stop, but I'm not one of them. I'll give season six a fair shot, but if it's as bad as I fear it will be I'll just have to watch something else. I watch tv to be entertained, not to bash my head against a wall. If it does go bad, I hope Jensen and Jared get out while the getting is good, but like I said before I can see them just doing the show for the steady paycheck.

'YES FANDOM, THE SHOW HAS A PERSONAL VENDETTA AGAINST YOU AND YOUR WACKY PAIRINGS! BE ENRAGED! XD'
IF DEAN EVER FINDS WING!PORN ON THE SHOW AND THINKS IT'S CREEPY AND WRONG, I KNOW I'D BE ENRAGED (while I'm laughing my ass off that is). I can see it now:

Dean: Dude, what the hell?! First, it was sex with my bother and now it's sex with Cas. That's just wrong.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I've always thought Lisa really was more of a symbol of the life Dean thought he wanted than someone he actually loved; how could he, he barely knew her. She was literally his dream girl.

Exactly. And how fair to either of them if this is only just chasing a dream?

I heard that in the original draft of the pilot episode, instead of Jess dieing Sam just leaves her; I've never really been sure what to think about that.

...That would have made absolutely no sense whatsoever. I mean, Jessica dying was what drove Sam to return to hunting in the first place and his determination to hunt down the demon that killed her. Making him leave her would have made Sam unlikable from the beginning, and given him no motivation to be hunting. It really says something about their earlier drafts on treating women on the show. I mean, granted I think we already knew this, but the fact is we fans keep returning to the show time and again despite that. It's like, we acknowledge it but it doesn't matter because some will continue to watch just for the boys (whether story-wise or just for shallow reasons) so it makes me wonder about the reversal of the situation the audience/fans have towards this issue?

True, but sadly he wouldn't be the first writer to do that. I'm convinced that Joss put out the Buffy season 8 comic just for the money; the characters go from OOC to WTH, the story makes no sense and I've seen better drawn fan-made comics.

Hmmm, I don't know. Joss wanted to continue the Buffyverse regardless, since he's always had ideas for the show that couldn't continue on in television format so escaping to another medium was the answer. And I don't think creating comics is just for the money because he does have those creative ideas for storylines that never were addressed/explored on the show. I do agree, based on what I've heard from the S8 comics, it does seem OOC for certain things to have happened and it makes you wonder why. But I don't think comic book continuations are equal to selling out.

I've heard people say that even if the show becomes bad they'll keep watching because they've invested too much time and effort to stop, but I'm not one of them.

Me neither. I think anyone that loves a show that much shouldn't, and probably wouldn't, want to continue seeing it being disrespected and going downhill, because it's just heartbreaking. I know shows do go through rough patches, but I honestly cannot stomach being letdown time and again by a show in hopes to gets better.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'Exactly. And how fair to either of them if this is only just chasing a dream?'
Not very fair at all to all of them if you ask me. I also feel sorry for Ben (who the writers seemed to have forgotten about) who might end up seeing Dean as a father figure. I mean even the writers implied that Dean didn't go back to Lisa because he loved her, but because he promised Sam that he would. Which once again makes Lisa just a prop. I really hope that if Lisa does call it quits with Dean that the next time Dean comes back she's married to someone who actually loves her and Ben, but than I was hoping for that when Lisa showed up the last time.

'It really says something about their earlier drafts on treating women on the show.'
It does, it really does.

'But I don't think comic book continuations are equal to selling out.'
I don't know, I guess I just thought it would be better.

'I mean, granted I think we already knew this, but the fact is we fans keep returning to the show time and again despite that.'
Yeah, but I've seen people hand-wave away the misogynistic undertones so much it's not even funny.

'but I honestly cannot stomach being letdown time and again by a show in hopes to gets better.'
Tell me about it. I started watching As The World Turns because of its gay storyline, but when it became clear that the writing in general was awful (I swear Paul Ryan has come back from the dead more than Cas) and Luke (the gay character) was only going to be on a few times a month even after he got a boyfriend, I gave up.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I mean even the writers implied that Dean didn't go back to Lisa because he loved her, but because he promised Sam that he would.

Exactly. In fact, that was heavily implied about Dean keeping his promise, henceforth what he was doing wasn't what he wanted to do but rather fulfilling a request by his deceased brother. Again, this goes back to having both Dean and Castiel returning to their "duties" based on what they should comply to, but it's not what they truly want, not entirely. I mean, I know Sera Gamble is all about "OMG ONE-TIME HOOKUPS MEANS TRU WUV!!!1" and all that bullshit, but I have a feeling that's not gonna last long, especially the uproar fandom has been having because of it.

I honestly would love to see Lisa with someone else, inside a relationship/married because while I love Dean, I hate the impression that this woman is just ~waiting~ for him to return years in between his random short visits. No. Stop treating women like mindless props, show. :/

Yeah, but I've seen people hand-wave away the misogynistic undertones so much it's not even funny.

It's kind of sad. I mean, I fully acknowledge the show has its issues and I wish they could do something about it, but it's the people that think they can play the double-standard that really pisses me off in this fandom sometimes. And if you call them out on it they immediately get defensive and start creating unnecessary childish drama.

I started watching As The World Turns because of its gay storyline, but when it became clear that the writing in general was awful

lol, well what soap opera storyline isn't written awfully? I find the more I try to watch soap operas the more ridiculous their writing is.

[love-jackianto.livejournal.com]

'I mean, I know Sera Gamble is all about 'OMG ONE-TIME HOOKUPS MEANS TRU WUV!!!1' and all that bullshit, but I have a feeling that's not gonna last long, especially the uproar fandom has been having because of it.'
I think we can all rest assured that Lisa/Dean won't make it past episode one. I find it kind of funny (and really sad) that people are already saying that if Sam and Dean don't get 'back together' in the first episode they'll stop watching. Have those people never seen this show!?

'Again, this goes back to having both Dean and Castiel returning to their 'duties' based on what they should comply to, but it's not what they truly want, not entirely.'
I couldn't agree more. In my head Castiel went back to Heaven partly because he thought helping his own family would make Dean happy (family is very important to Dean after all), just like Dean thought 'going back to' Lisa would make Sam happy. Dean's 'what do we do now?' line always made me think that what Dean really wanted was for Cas to stay.

'I honestly would love to see Lisa with someone else, inside a relationship/married because while I love Dean, I hate the impression that this woman is just ~waiting~ for him to return years in between his random short visits. No. Stop treating women like mindless props, show. :/'
I would hate that impression too, but than I remember how many people seemed to love The Time Travel's Wife; WTH Clare spent most her life waiting for Henry to come back because, like the author said, he was her soul mate. I could see Dawn O's coveted teenage girl demo eating that up; considering Dawn O doesn't get SPN at all (and the teenage girl demo seems to be the only one she cares about) I could see her trying to pull something like that on SPN for that reason alone (I'm convinced Dean's Titanic inspired love scene was there just to appeal to teenage girls, it certainly didn't fit the style of the show). I've never been in the typical teenage girl demo, even when I was one, so if they do that my eyes wouldn't be able to roll fast enough. If that happens it really will be zombies years. Members of the original creative team (Kripke and Carver) have already left, after all.

'It's kind of sad. I mean, I fully acknowledge the show has its issues and I wish they could do something about it, but it's the people that think they can play the double-standard that really pisses me off in this fandom sometimes. And if you call them out on it they immediately get defensive and start creating unnecessary childish drama.'
I acknowledge the show has issues and there are parts of the fandom where I don't talk them; just like there are parts of the Torchwood fandom while I don't voice my opinion that I just don't think RTD is all that good of a writer; apparently because he's a professional writer he can't be criticized.

'lol, well what soap opera storyline isn't written awfully? I find the more I try to watch soap operas the more ridiculous their writing is.'
Hahaha... true. People say the reason American soaps are dieing off (AS The World Turns is ending in September) is because no one is home to watch them anymore and while that might be part of the reason I think it has more to do with horrible writing.