The Disillusionment of Joss Whedon
Feb. 10th, 2021 04:02 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rogueslayer452Charisma Carpenter wrote a message speaking out against Joss Whedon in support of Ray Fisher who has been speaking out about his mistreatment by Whedon while filming Justice League.
While most fans are probably aware of what happened to Charisma during filming Angel, which has become infamous at demonstrating how unprofessional Joss was being by blaming her for getting pregnant, she goes into further detail about that along with things that we didn't previously know in how he mistreated her behind-the-scenes. From the things he said to her to how she essentially was blacklisted from getting any work until she played nice and made a public statement saying how she and Joss were cool now in order to get roles again. It's quite disturbing, really, especially with how common it is how this frequently happens within the entertainment industry with how creators abuse their power and are abusive towards others in the process, and Joss Whedon is no different. Charisma's support of Ray Fisher by recounting her own experience with Joss has led to support from others, including Amber Benson, who acknowledges the toxic work environment that Joss creates. I hope more former cast members make similar statements or show support.
I haven't talked much about my feelings regarding Joss Whedon, and that's mostly because after his ex-wife made that statement years ago I immediately stopped caring about him altogether.
I was someone who really liked Joss Whedon for a long time, and while I never placed him on a pedestal like some others did I felt that the intense hate he had gotten, especially around the time of The Avengers, was a bit over-the-top, probably because it's the Internet and people were constantly looking for the hate bandwagon to join in on. But I think my disillusionment started around that time, too, because even though some people kind of were kind of reaching in some instances I also understood where they were coming from and there were some very valid criticisms, but I was still holding onto this belief that he wasn't as bad as people were saying. I kept rationalized in my mind that he's human, he's fucked up badly in some cases (ex: the Charisma Carpenter situation), but I thought that despite these things he was a genuinely good person. However, the more I became aware of certain things the more the disillusionment started taking hold, and once his ex-wife made her statement that's when it solidified for me.
The disappointment in this revelation was strong, though oddly not unexpected since I subconsciously knew certain things I just wasn't allowing myself to believe that someone that I once liked and even admired to turn out to be a shitty individual, particularly one that tried to paint and present himself to the public as one thing (a self-proclaimed feminist) while proving not to follow through in his behavior. Perhaps I was foolish for hoping that none of it was true. It took a lot of reevaluating on my part, and examining how I viewed him before and why I did, especially with questioning whether I liked him as a person or thought I did because he created some of my favorite shows. It was probably my first serious "separate the art from the artist" revelation.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a formative part of my teenage years, and I will never stop loving it. And I still enjoy his other works too, because he can write incredibly well regardless. But much like with JKR, I have since divorced the creator from the work. Even more so because his shows were more of a collaborative effort with others, producers and writers and actors all working together, so I'm still able to appreciate the work despite who created it.
While most fans are probably aware of what happened to Charisma during filming Angel, which has become infamous at demonstrating how unprofessional Joss was being by blaming her for getting pregnant, she goes into further detail about that along with things that we didn't previously know in how he mistreated her behind-the-scenes. From the things he said to her to how she essentially was blacklisted from getting any work until she played nice and made a public statement saying how she and Joss were cool now in order to get roles again. It's quite disturbing, really, especially with how common it is how this frequently happens within the entertainment industry with how creators abuse their power and are abusive towards others in the process, and Joss Whedon is no different. Charisma's support of Ray Fisher by recounting her own experience with Joss has led to support from others, including Amber Benson, who acknowledges the toxic work environment that Joss creates. I hope more former cast members make similar statements or show support.
I haven't talked much about my feelings regarding Joss Whedon, and that's mostly because after his ex-wife made that statement years ago I immediately stopped caring about him altogether.
I was someone who really liked Joss Whedon for a long time, and while I never placed him on a pedestal like some others did I felt that the intense hate he had gotten, especially around the time of The Avengers, was a bit over-the-top, probably because it's the Internet and people were constantly looking for the hate bandwagon to join in on. But I think my disillusionment started around that time, too, because even though some people kind of were kind of reaching in some instances I also understood where they were coming from and there were some very valid criticisms, but I was still holding onto this belief that he wasn't as bad as people were saying. I kept rationalized in my mind that he's human, he's fucked up badly in some cases (ex: the Charisma Carpenter situation), but I thought that despite these things he was a genuinely good person. However, the more I became aware of certain things the more the disillusionment started taking hold, and once his ex-wife made her statement that's when it solidified for me.
The disappointment in this revelation was strong, though oddly not unexpected since I subconsciously knew certain things I just wasn't allowing myself to believe that someone that I once liked and even admired to turn out to be a shitty individual, particularly one that tried to paint and present himself to the public as one thing (a self-proclaimed feminist) while proving not to follow through in his behavior. Perhaps I was foolish for hoping that none of it was true. It took a lot of reevaluating on my part, and examining how I viewed him before and why I did, especially with questioning whether I liked him as a person or thought I did because he created some of my favorite shows. It was probably my first serious "separate the art from the artist" revelation.
Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a formative part of my teenage years, and I will never stop loving it. And I still enjoy his other works too, because he can write incredibly well regardless. But much like with JKR, I have since divorced the creator from the work. Even more so because his shows were more of a collaborative effort with others, producers and writers and actors all working together, so I'm still able to appreciate the work despite who created it.
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no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 01:56 am (UTC)For some reason, this is the part that was most disappointing. Lots of people are shitty, but being shitty while acting like you're an ally is just worse.
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Date: 2021-02-11 09:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 02:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 09:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 02:52 am (UTC)Buffy the Vampire Slayer was a formative part of my teenage years, and I will never stop loving it. And I still enjoy his other works too, because he can write incredibly well regardless. But much like with JKR, I have since divorced the creator from the work. Even more so because his shows were more of a collaborative effort with others, producers and writers and actors all working together, so I'm still able to appreciate the work despite who created it.
Exactly. Including Charisma herself. Joss may have been the impetus behind the Buffyverse but it belongs to dozens if not hundreds of others.
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Date: 2021-02-11 10:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 03:38 am (UTC)she goes into further detail about that along with things that we didn't previously know in how he mistreated her behind-the-scenes. From the things he said to her to how she essentially was blacklisted from getting any work until she played nice and made a public statement saying how she and Joss were cool now in order to get roles again. It's quite disturbing, really,
It is. Like you said, we already knew she'd been treated unfairly at the end of Angel, but I at least had pictured more Red Tape variety unfair treatment, not outright bullying.
What occurs to me as being bitterly ironic is that there were points in Cordy's arc where we see her being abused by producers she's working for. Did Joss Whedon not see the hypocrisy? Did he think it was okay for him to do it? Then again, with the things his ex-wife has said, it's clear he was hypocritical on many fronts. And it's really not the only example of someone claiming they're a feminist (or for any other movement, for that matter) while actually being (whatever they claim to be) in practice. Sounds like Joss Whedon's that person.
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I was someone who really liked Joss Whedon for a long time, and while I never placed him on a pedestal like some others did I felt that the intense hate he had gotten, especially around the time of The Avengers, was a bit over-the-top, probably because it's the Internet and people were constantly looking for the hate bandwagon to join in on
Yeah, same here. I did see some commentary about Firefly where Joss Whedon was being a bit OTT sullen, he definitely rubbed me the wrong way, but I just figured he was a little full of himself. I'm less surprised than I would've been had his wife never come forward with all of that stuff, but still pretty horrified.
I'm with you, though. I'll continue to love Buffy. And in some ways it's actually easier than Harry Potter, because aa you pointed out, you have multiple writers, actors and producers involved. Whereas with Harry Potter, it's pretty much just JK Rowling. But of course there's the fanbase in all cases of problematic creators. I think there's a power in making the world your own in a certain sense. Why I love Buffy and Harry Potter are very separate from their respective creators.
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Date: 2021-02-11 06:22 am (UTC)I don't know though, firing someone to punish them for daring to get pregnant seems like a pretty toxic work environment by definition...at the very least, it revealed the falseness of his "feminism."
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Date: 2021-02-11 06:34 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 12:42 am (UTC)Yeah, anyone can say that they're for something but unless they're actively putting their money where their mouth is and are acting accordingly it's all lip-service. We see this all the time, and this is no different.
(Also, I want to say that his brand of "feminism" was always somewhat outdated, like it probably was okay for the 90s but he never grew beyond that.)
But of course there's the fanbase in all cases of problematic creators. I think there's a power in making the world your own in a certain sense. Why I love Buffy and Harry Potter are very separate from their respective creators.
Exactly. It's all personal choice on how to proceed from this point on, and some people are more comfortable than others, and that's fine. It just depends on where you, personally, draw the line. For me, I'm able to separate Joss from his work, mostly because I've kind of divorced myself from Joss for some time now due to everything that I've had time to really digest and come to terms with everything. It's like, the things that are coming out aren't really new or shocking, it's just more to the story that we didn't know previously which adds more weight to how serious it all was.
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Date: 2021-02-11 04:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 06:33 am (UTC)I agree though about it being even easier to separate the work from the author in this case versus JKR...my favorite of his shows, Angel, is the one he had the least to do with, especially in season 3 when he was busy with too many other shows. And the actors also can bring something on their own to the characters.
In short, with both JKR and Joss, I became disillusioned over a decade ago and thus didn't really feel anything but sadness for the victims and further confirmation of my feelings with the more recent news.
no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 12:55 am (UTC)This was something that I think everyone grapples with, because it forces you to really question things, and I think for the most part a lot of us are embarrassed to admit that we admired such a person who did something horrible so we tend to go into denial and go on the defensive, because it's easier to defend someone than to face the reality that you admired someone who might have seriously fucked up in a major way. I just think once you start realizing that nobody is infallible, that people you love and admire and respect can actually fail and betray you, then it's easier to distance yourself and gain more of a perspective in that way.
Or basically, never idolize anyone, and while you should always believe the best in people you should also keep an open mind and you don't have to defend someone when something terrible is revealed about their actions or behavior.
In short, with both JKR and Joss, I became disillusioned over a decade ago and thus didn't really feel anything but sadness for the victims and further confirmation of my feelings with the more recent news.
Yeah, and with both it was a gradual process of disillusionment for me. And ironically, they were both creators who I felt I would have loved to meet and say, "thank you" to, and now I don't feel that way anymore about either of them.
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Date: 2021-02-11 01:08 pm (UTC)Between Whedon and JKR, it's high time to let go of the past and support new, diverse creators who are and remain, hopefully, decent human beings.
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Date: 2021-02-12 01:01 am (UTC)I don't know what the outcome will eventually be, since Joss has been declining not just in popularity but also in projects as well. Hopefully the end of his career.
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Date: 2021-02-11 05:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-12 08:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2021-02-11 06:42 pm (UTC)Also, he's been scrubbed from the marketing for The Nevers (which he left a few months ago). It's likely this will just keep snowballing.
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Date: 2021-02-12 01:08 am (UTC)I do wonder what the eventual outcome will be. Like, he's not had a good track record when it comes to his involvement in films in recent years, so his career and popularity was already declining so it makes me wonder if this will ultimately be the end for him.
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Date: 2021-02-17 08:21 pm (UTC)I'm really sad that Charisma had to lie for so long and pretend things were fine or else face not having work again. That makes me really mad.