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rogueslayer452Doesn't it bother anyone else that the brothers end up killing the human host the demon is possessing?
This happens more often in the last few seasons, with the introduction to the knife and now with the concept of burning the human bones that once belonged to the demon (since demons were once human too.) Yes, before exorcisms were the only source of getting rid of a demon from a living human body but that was only to send the demons back to Hell, while afterwards discovering other methods that were highly more effective on killing the demon once and for all. However all those methods (aside from Sam using his now ex-demon psychic powers) end up killing the human host also. This is where I am finding it rather problematic.
What about the innocent people they end up killing in the process? What about the families they left behind, wondering about their loved ones? It's a wonder why more people don't come after the Winchesters and other hunters for revenge on those they left behind by their own hand.....
Essentially, my problem with this representation is that the show isn't addressing this issue often enough, and I don't mean they should bring this up every single episode in detail, but rather show the ramifications of their actions whenever they are confronted by having to kill hoards of demons ruthlessly with either the knife, the bone burning or otherwise. It's done so frivolously that it's almost like they have forgotten that there are innocent people involved every time they are confronted by demons. The show has completely forgotten about the human aspect of demon possession. Demons have become personified rather than the incorporeal beings they are, the human face they wear become the threat instead of the black smoke that has assaulted a completely innocent human being. Of course this could make it ~easier~ for the Winchesters, and other hunters as well, to kill and destroy the demons if they focus on the physical form rather than their true forms. But that doesn't excuse it or make it right.
(Note: This can be extended to the humans angels possess as well, although they seem to follow a different code of conduct than with demon possessions; angels can only take a human host of the proper bloodline with willing consent from the human themselves, thereby they understand to an extent what is expected of this "holy possession", whereas with demons they just possess anyone, anywhere, anytime, regardless if the bodies are alive or dead)
Then again, this is Supernatural we're talking about. With the endless list of things they have failed to acknowledge or have just simply forgotten in terms of consistency of the writing and the canon of their own mythology, I hardly expect them to acknowledge any of this. -__-
I kinda also want to address the whole "anything that isn't human deserves to be killed" aspect of the show, which is equally problematic. Never mind how the Winchesters, more often than not, tend to play God in deciding who lives or dies, and in deciding who is "more human" or not. Just, ugh. That is another rant for another time though. :/
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Date: 2012-03-12 05:19 pm (UTC)The Winchesters have become thoughtless murderers where the people they kill or who die for them are nothing more than collateral damage.
I have hated the Winchester belief in killing all supernatural beings when they themselves aren't actually human, especially Sam.
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Date: 2012-03-13 07:22 am (UTC)I know, right? I'm just thinking of everyone that has died for them, who are so unfortunate to get the crappy ends of the deal, and yet are still treated like collateral damage, by not just the characters/the show but by other fans too. Like Adam, for instance, their half-brother, I've seen complaints at how Adam wasn't a "true" Winchester (meaning full-blood) therefore he doesn't matter. It's like, really? Is that how you really feel?
It's pure example on how this viewpoint is reflected on the show, and it's very disturbing and insulting on many levels.
I have hated the Winchester belief in killing all supernatural beings when they themselves aren't actually human, especially Sam.
My thoughts exactly. I can't begin to tell you how much I just hate that the Winchesters get a free pass because they are "the stars" of the show while everyone else around them is treated like shit. It's like, you'd think they would be more understanding in that sense, but hey, if it's not Winchester-related they really don't care. -___-
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Date: 2012-03-12 05:54 pm (UTC)I hate it. I used to love and care about these characters so much, but I can only take what the show is giving me, and they have turned them, and Dean in particular, into self-righteous, hypocritical assholes. And for what? Stupid jokes about unicorns and dicks?
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Date: 2012-03-13 06:03 am (UTC)Pretty much, yeah.
It's upsetting because I don't think they intentionally meant to do that, otherwise there would have been more acknowledgment on their end on why they made them into hypocritical assholes. But the problem stems from many people coddling them and woobifying their experiences, putting them on a pedestal when really, why should we? What makes the Winchesters more important than any other being out there? Why should they be excused from such behavior and others be condemned for doing the same thing, for the same exact reasons they do (i.e. saving the world, preventing another apocalypse, etc)? And they don't remain consistent in that aspect either.
This is just one of the many issues this show has had. And the problems have gotten more problematic as the show continues on, more noticeably in S6 and S7 than any other season, tbh.
no subject
Date: 2012-03-13 12:16 am (UTC)They agonized over it in the first two seasons, then it devolved. (Actually, you can say that about a lot of things on the show, including the attitude towards non-humans possibly being worth saving) Around the same time that demons went from being super-hard to kill to being killable in droves; to use gamer language, they went from mini-bosses to mooks.
And don't get me started on how the show's incorporation of Greek etc. mythology has (a) been bastardized into barely recognizable form and (b) doesn't mesh at all well with the original urban legend premise of the show.
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Date: 2012-03-13 04:39 am (UTC)And don't get me started on how the show's incorporation of Greek etc. mythology has (a) been bastardized into barely recognizable form and (b) doesn't mesh at all well with the original urban legend premise of the show.
Seriously. I cringe at some of the things they "attempted" to do with some of the mythologies. It's okay to incorporate some of it to fit the universe, but don't twist it into something so unrecognizable that it just doesn't make sense and is later forgotten by canon entirely. Ugh.
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Date: 2012-03-13 12:28 pm (UTC)"Sam Hain". Unforgiveable.
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Date: 2012-03-13 01:35 am (UTC)All I can think is, I feel so bad for Alistair's second host. Being tortured? A horrible way to go. And Sam uses his powers but doesn't save the host in that case.
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Date: 2012-03-13 01:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2012-03-13 05:39 am (UTC)The fact that the show has forgotten that the majority of the beings they've dealt with, from ghosts and variety of monsters to even demons themselves, were all human once, that half of them aren't even dangerous at all and just need some guidance or understanding, or even be saved, is just very disturbing. You'd think after much exposure of this the boys would end up being more sympathetic and try to help others and find alternative means to their cases. But nope. They just kill, they don't save, and if they do save it's for whoever they deem "truly human". It just gets worse. Just look at the way they have treated their non-human friend Castiel. They trapped him, interrogated him and shunned him for things they themselves have done many, many times. But because he's not human, it's okay to treat him in such a way?
How are we supposed to sympathize with them because of this? As the main characters and supposed "heroes" of the story, the show has made them very, very unlikeable. I doubt that was their intention, but with the way they've gone about it over the last couple of seasons, particularly with the lacking of acknowledgment of their actions and consequences that follow, is really telling with how everything has just gone downhill.
(and yet most fans will excuse their behavior and attitudes, put them on a pedestal and coddle them even if they do something wrong to others, because apparently to the loudest in the fandom the show is about ~Sam and Dean~ and anyone else is collateral damage. -__-)
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Date: 2012-03-13 12:33 pm (UTC)Oh, and there's Sam draining a probably lethal amount of blood from a possessed woman (unnecessarily, as it turns out). If he was any other character, the brothers would say "You've done too much evil if it was for good intentions, and you have to be put down."
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Date: 2012-03-13 01:07 pm (UTC)Exactly. There are so many other options they could do first before doing something violent as a last resort. Just think of how many innocent lives they could save by that alone.
Oh, and there's Sam draining a probably lethal amount of blood from a possessed woman (unnecessarily, as it turns out). If he was any other character, the brothers would say "You've done too much evil if it was for good intentions, and you have to be put down."
I just can't with their hypocrisy. What seriously bugs is how they don't acknowledge this on the actual show. They just expect us to accept it without question all because they are the "heroes" and it's irritating as hell. I like characters with flaws, but those flaws need to be addressed so the characters can fix them and improve themselves. The fact they aren't after seven seasons (or at least stopped caring about the humanity of the matter after a certain point) is just irresponsible and sloppy.
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Date: 2012-03-13 08:36 am (UTC)Seriously, never mind how Dean used to torture human souls in Hell as well. You'd think he would be more mindful of the human souls he is still torturing while torturing/killing demons. But nope. It's like all of that PTSD of his time in Hell just magically disappeared and he is becoming that monster, but it's okay right, because ~~they're demons~~ and the humans they are possessing are just "collateral damage" and just, ugh. No. That is disrespectful and insulting on so many levels, I can't even.
Oh, and related to all of this and the Winchester's being the moral police, it just reminds me of how infuriating it is with how they (+the show) handle Cas when he's doing the exact same things as them.
Exactly! And for all the examples you've given, it just angers me even more. Esp concerning Bobby because after that rant he gave the boys earlier in the season, you'd think he would at least understand and be more sympathetic instead of being the one to immediately point fingers and go along with trapping Castiel, interrogating him and being angry and such. No. Just, no.
I hate the moral policing, but I think I hate how the show just doesn't acknowledge this as a flaw. Sure, they've had a few characters mention it in passing (ex. Bobby to the boys, Rachel to the boys) but it's not dealt with seriously or taken to heart. It's as if the show just puts it in there just to say, "well we mentioned it so you can't argue that we didn't" -- like the mentioning of Adam, only to really show that Dean wouldn't choose Adam over Sam in getting him out of Hell, which isn't really new, but just makes him look even worse for not attempting to save Adam after that. Just, ugh.
I mean, I didn't watch the episodes or anything so maybe I'm missing something here, but: the single mother monster~ gets killed, the married witch gets to live (also there's some comment I think that the husband makes about reigning in his wife's ~crazy behavior), and the amazons (y'know, all women) are all monsters who must be killed. I see.
Sexism and gender role policing -- welcome to SPN! *insert eye roll here*
(There are times where I wonder why I watched this show in the first place, the amount of problematic issues that come up is alarming. Even at the convention we have the boys kind of commenting on the negative reaction to women they have on the show via the fanbase -- all which cheered when they mimicked the "get those sluts away from our boys!" and people on Tumblr agreeing with that sentiment -- it's just a whole load of sexist/internal misogyny everywhere. Plus there is that clip for the new episode this week with Dean saying something really sexist and disgusting, thanks Show. Thanks. -___-)
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Date: 2016-04-15 05:18 am (UTC)Yes! It makes me miss the earlier seasons where they actually CARED about saving people. Now? The boys are just as heartless as the demons they go after.
I kinda also want to address the whole "anything that isn't human deserves to be killed" aspect of the show, which is equally problematic. Never mind how the Winchesters, more often than not, tend to play God in deciding who lives or dies, and in deciding who is "more human" or not. Just, ugh. That is another rant for another time though. :/
THIS! It was one thing when they didn't know any better but now? They should. The whole Humans = Good and Monsters = Bad is too simplistic.
There is a difference between being a monster and doing monstrous things.