Fandom ups and downs.

[rogueslayer452]

Taken from the Crunchy Questions Meme:

What are some improvements that have occurred within the fandom community over the years? What are things that you wish would cease or that people would stop doing?


I would say one improvement would probably be the ceasing of snark communities, where the entire purpose was to mock fans, particularly younger fans, for the fanworks they created. Now, I enjoy a good snark, but the lines can blur easily into just being plain mean-spirited and unfortunately that's what a lot of those communities ended up becoming. And looking back, while it can be fun to mock mainstream entertainment MST3k-style it's not a good idea to do that with fan-created works, especially without their knowledge or permission which was sadly very common back in the day. I have no doubt that stuff like this still exists, since hate communities in general still exist no matter the platform, it's just not as widely known or accessible as it used to be back in the day, which is good. Fandom is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, and seeing hate towards fans, even in a mocking way, can be incredibly discouraging.

I also think that blatant internalized misogyny has lessened over the years. It obviously still does exist, unfortunately, but I also think there's more conversation surrounding the topic of defending female characters (and actresses/performers/creators/etc) and examining this kind of toxic mindset. There's less mockery of Mary Sues, bashing of female characters in fanfiction is greatly frowned upon, and so on.

At the same time, though, I do think that while some things have improved much has also remained the same, just repackaged differently with the social climate we're currently in.

Like yes, internalized misogyny has lessened in certain fandom circles, but it has also created this toxic positive mentality where no criticism or examination of the flaws and nuances of female characters should exist, that women, fictional and real alike, are queens and flawless goddesses that can do no wrong, which is just incredibly dehumanizing and is just as bad as outright hating on them for no reason. This is doubly so for WOC, as well, which yes racism in fandom is still a massive problem that needs to be addressed but this is not the way of combatting it. There are other examples of this, but essentially the gist is that we went from one extreme to a complete 180 into another extreme which is rather counterproductive in fandom spaces where discussions of these particular topics need to be addressed rather than brushed aside or treated like some shallow hot take on social media, be it internalized misogyny/homophobia, generational gaps in the overall fandom community, attitudes towards fanworks vs mainstream media and the influence they both have as a whole, etc. The latter especially since it is very much tied with purity culture, which needs to be eradicated, as far as I'm concerned. Purity culture, and all it entails, has done nothing good for anyone, fandom and non-fandom alike, and seeing so many people repeat these ideologies and views across all sorts of places is deeply concerning to me, to be honest.

So yeah, I think that this gradual shift within the fandom community over the years has been something that has been bothering me for a long time. Whether or not this was the natural state of progression of fandom as platforms and online interaction changed, who knows, it could very well have been inevitable. So while I think some things have improved, other things really haven't, either having gotten worse or more or less remained the same. I do think that, with all things, it will always fluctuate as time goes on, we'll have our ups and downs, improvements and setbacks.


So yeah, this kind of got long, longer than I initially intended, and it's not even everything that I wanted to include because I do have specific examples that I wanted to get into more with things that do need more improvement within the online fandom community, but that will have to wait for another day. I had certain thoughts I needed to write out, I just hope that it was coherent enough to make sense.

Comments

Re: Pt 1

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Yep. And I can tell you those fans would have been crushed.

Yeah, it must've made a massive impact on them and probably made them so discouraged. The sad thing is that there were some incidents that I witnessed where some of those fans not only discovered that their work was being mocked, but attempted to politely ask the mods of those communities to take it down, and they were not only refused but also mocked for their attempts. The mods/members would often use the, "if it's posted publicly online it's fair game", which while technically true it's still an asshole thing to do. :/

but I really think GamerGate was the boiling point, and why we started seeing a reversal of all that.

I think you're right about that, there was definitely a massive shift that started from there which led to, as you mentioned, everything involving the MeToo movement where the conversation started picking up when it came to the treatment in women, whether in the workplace, in the entertainment industry, in media, in fandom, etc. So much so that when you look back at how fandom used to be, the way people acted, it was a reflection of how our society and culture was back then and how acceptable it was to basically treat women, shaming them, bashing them, etc. Granted it was always bad even back then, but now that things have culturally shifted in the opposite direction, we're now having larger discussions on these particular issues and shining light on them more than before.

(This also explains the Twilight resurgence that I've seen happening lately, because as much as the story itself was not written well, it's far from the worst thing that's out there and it also wasn't deserving for half of the hate it got, and it's also why people started apologizing to Stephanie Meyer for openly hating/mocking/shaming her for writing pretty much a typical YA vampire story. Stories and pieces of media that are often written by women and where the main target audience is for teen girls and young women in general are often mocked by others, and Twilight, once it gained popularity through the movies specifically, became the biggest scapegoat of that and as much as I don't care for that series, it really shines a big light on the misogyny/internalize misogyny that exploded during that particular time.

It's also perhaps why there's been a lot of people defending the concept of "Mary Sues" and even encouraging people to not be ashamed of writing self-inserts into their OCs, because people, young fans in fandom especially, have always been afraid of being made fun of for this reason and just basically going, "you know what? fuck it, write what you want, have fun, don't pay attention to the haters", has really kind of been refreshing, imho. I don't have to read it if it's not my taste, and that's fine. Let others have their fun experimenting and exploring things through their writing.)

I just think we didn't like being the outliers of fandom and wanted to feel like we were part of A Circle, at least. Except that's not how you do it.

I think a lot of people feel/have felt that way at some point, at least not feeling like they were among the biggest circles of a particular fandom and that they need to connect with others like the BNFs and their little tight knit groups were. But you're right, that's not the way to do it.

RE: Re: Pt 1

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it must've made a massive impact on them and probably made them so discouraged. The sad thing is that there were some incidents that I witnessed where some of those fans not only discovered that their work was being mocked, but attempted to politely ask the mods of those communities to take it down, and they were not only refused but also mocked for their attempts. The mods/members would often use the, "if it's posted publicly online it's fair game", which while technically true it's still an asshole thing to do. :/

Yeah, I stood in for a friend, and while TBH I probably wasn't very diplomatic about asking, the person — who's actually relatively well known even now, I think, which makes it awkward when people mention them — was like "and guess what, I'm going to post this email now too, so thanks." I mean. Come on. You're exactly right, it's technically fair game for being posted publicly, but it still makes you an asshole. At the very least, honor someone's wishes for it to be taken down. That should be your wake up call that the people you're making fun of are still people who were just trying to write for a fandom you both love. The world's not that small, either, and the internet certainly isn't.


So much so that when you look back at how fandom used to be, the way people acted, it was a reflection of how our society and culture was back then and how acceptable it was to basically treat women, shaming them, bashing them, etc.

Exactly. Mary Sue was the easiest target. She was all the women who got made fun of IRL. (And sure, there were Gary Stus, but let's be honest, Pottersues wasn't about Gary Stus 90% of the time.)

(This also explains the Twilight resurgence that I've seen happening lately, because as much as the story itself was not written well, it's far from the worst thing that's out there and it also wasn't deserving for half of the hate it got, and it's also why people started apologizing to Stephanie Meyer for openly hating/mocking/shaming her for writing pretty much a typical YA vampire story. Stories and pieces of media that are often written by women and where the main target audience is for teen girls and young women in general are often mocked by others, and Twilight, once it gained popularity through the movies specifically, became the biggest scapegoat of that and as much as I don't care for that series, it really shines a big light on the misogyny/internalize misogyny that exploded during that particular time.


ABSOLUTELY. I love your theory that the resurgence of Twilight is people realizing all the internalized misogyny from before. That makes a lot of sense.

And you know, I had friends even at the time say "(name), this book series just isn't for you." Looking back, they were absolutely right. I didn't want to read a YA romance. So... don't.


I think a lot of people feel/have felt that way at some point, at least not feeling like they were among the biggest circles of a particular fandom and that they need to connect with others like the BNFs and their little tight knit groups were. But you're right, that's not the way to do it.


I think that's true of life in general (maybe that's what you meant), so it makes sense. Even the term "basic." So someone likes yogurt. Why is that a crime? I love a good yogurt parfait, and I don't think I'm "basic." But even if I were "basic", having a few, or even many, mainstream interests isn't a crime. No one's insulting you by enjoying something.

(I DO make fun of the notion that smoothies and yoga are the only way to attain true happiness, but that's not making fun of smoothies and yoga, that's making fun of toxic positivity. It's fine to love smoothies and yoga and Twilight and blueberry yogurt with granola. Or some of those things. Or none of those things.)

Re: Pt 1

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

And you know, I had friends even at the time say "(name), this book series just isn't for you." Looking back, they were absolutely right. I didn't want to read a YA romance. So... don't.

This is something that I think most people, myself included, need to tell themselves more often. You might try a piece of media but once you realize that it's not to your tastes, just leave it be and move on. No need to publicly bash it and label it "bad" just because you didn't like it. Some things just aren't made for you, and that's okay. Find something else that is.

(It's kind of why I don't really watch those "this [piece of media] sucks" videos on YouTube anymore because, even if it's entertaining to watch or that the person is making good points that you agree on because you felt the same way, at the end of the day what purpose is that video serving? It's one thing to constructively critique a piece of media, it's another to basically say, "this sucks and here's why nobody should watch it" which, while I'm sure it's just a person venting and they can't really control what their audience does with the information that they hear in the video, because people will just take things at face value and not give anything else a second thought, but idk, a lot of the time those videos tend to rub me the wrong way these days for the exact reason of perhaps the simple explanation is that it just wasn't for you? idk)

RE: Re: Pt 1

[author-by-night.livejournal.com]

it's another to basically say, "this sucks and here's why nobody should watch it" which,

Yeah, I like the ones where they have valid criticisms but also point out what the movie did well.

I agree that it's sometimes obvious the media just wasn't for them to begin with. That always frustrates me.

I also get frustrated when people talk about book based movies without having read the source material. I see The Princess Diaries mocked a lot, and while I agree the movies weren't the books, the second one was pretty awful IMHO, I'd prefer to see criticism from someone who also grew up reading the series. Though that's not really their fault.

I mean, I even have that issue with some critics of religion online. I have no problem with criticizing extremists, with criticizing fundamentalists, but some of those vloggers get into "and here's why any belief is stupid" territory. At the end of the day, some beliefs just don't align with yours, and there's a difference between all religion being bad and actual bad that comes out of religion. I think we can certainly talk about microaggressions that have a religious bent, but then you're still talking about intolerance. I have beliefs I know those vloggers would say are weird and unscientific, but they're mine and I can't help it. My point is, that's another thing people may not be into, but that doesn't make it inherently bad.

(I even had to stop watching one vlogger because he started talking about how all Muslims are extremists. Nope. Bye.)

Re: Pt 1

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I like the ones where they have valid criticisms but also point out what the movie did well.

Exactly, where they are objective and look at both the negative and positive things while critiquing instead of just the negative parts. Or even talk about what they, personally, would have preferred to see. I find those fascinating because it shows that they're able to enjoy something even if it's flawed, or even admit that it wasn't for them but doesn't talk down about it, which is an unfortunate thing that many reviewers often do.

When I guess when we're talking about things like YouTube, videos that are ranting/negative tend to get more views so it's understandable that there would be more of that type than ones that review or talk about things fairly.

I also get frustrated when people talk about book based movies without having read the source material.

I view books and their adaptations to be two separate entities, so I'm not overly bothered by that if people review or talk about a movie and haven't read the source material. Because I've done the same thing, myself, sometimes without really knowing. However, it is definitely frustrating whenever I know the source material and an adaptation is, in my opinion, is incredibly shitty because it missed the point of the message and story and people end up praising the movie version more than talking about the importance of the book, or comparing/contrasting things, like what a movie enhanced from the book or what the book did better, etc. Because while I know it is commonly said that "the book is better than the movie", sometimes it's fascinating to look at both and see what both did good, what they didn't do well, etc, since different mediums can enhance the story depending on its intended audience, and not seeing people talking about that stuff when taking into account adaptations of a certain source material is really disappointing.

And, like yeah, it's not their fault because they haven't read the book to compare it, or prefer the movie to the book because that happens sometimes, different preferences and all of that, but still. I guess I prefer that deeper conversation that not many are willing to have. And again, that's fine, but I wish there was more analysis of those types out there that can get into the grit of it all on that level, y'know?