Insomnia just isn't good with an overworking fangirl brain, bbs.

[rogueslayer452]

While I'm still processing and digesting everything from last night, gathering my emotions to make a coherent review, there is something that has been nagging at me for a while regarding Supernatural as presented loud and clear from last night. And I think this sums up my feelings on the situation very nicely:

This has been my issue with Supernatural for a while now, is that there's too much lipservice and not much showing about how the two main characters are learning and growing from their experiences. We can chalk it up saying that they have their own personal issues, but after six seasons you'd think it'd get through their thick skulls and understand where certain characters are coming from instead of being selfish and self-righteous about everything when they've done just about as bad or worse. Surely there's emotion from all sides but the show fails at presenting a clear way of showing that, even after all the things the Winchesters have gone through, what they've witnessed and experienced firsthand, they cannot see outside their own bubble and that's the infuriating part especially after watching last night's episode and seeing the hurt and dismay Castiel was going through, and how they failed at trying to understand his side.

Here in this clip, Lee Adama is actually defending Gaius Baltar when he doesn't remotely like him at all. This is what Lee Adama believes in his heart, and we've seen Lee grow over the course of the series because of this, what he's learned and what he's come to believe despite it all. Pretty much all the characters have gone through a powerful transformation at some point during the series. And guys, Battlestar Galactica had only four seasons. Supernatural has six and we're still dealing with the self-centered immaturity and recycled nonsense the Winchesters deal with. Does that seem right to you?

Now I'm not saying that Supernatural needs to be making epic speeches every episode (although that would be pretty awesome...) they really need to start upping their game at having characters learn something and actually keeping that in their minds for future reference. Don't have them say one thing, then do the opposite in the next episode. Actually giving them character development than just repeating the same shit over and over and never getting anywhere, even if they are totally flawed characters with many issues. Otherwise that's just piss-poor laziness of the writing. :/

Just, yeah. There are many things that irritate me about the show, however that is the major one that brought up my reaction from last night and it just makes no sense how they cannot see this flaw and at least try to eradicate it.


Oh and yes, that is who you think it is in the clip.

Comments

[fate-incomplete.livejournal.com]

I loved this speech by Lee so hard. And Romo Lampkin still remains my favourite Mark Sheppard character, he kicked ass in this.

I loved 6.20, though I can understand your frustration with the Winchester's not evolving and learning from their own mistakes. They do tend to get up on their high horse and ride rough shod over anyone who isn't named Sam or Dean with their self righteous retoric.

I sort of think that Dean did stick by Cas in the episode though (assuming they aren't on opposite sides when we see them next) but I'm happy to disagree on that. I am a bit of an eternal optimist when it comes to my favourite characters, so I'm still holding out hope Dean will help Cas somehow.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I sort of think that Dean did stick by Cas in the episode though (assuming they aren't on opposite sides when we see them next) but I'm happy to disagree on that. I am a bit of an eternal optimist when it comes to my favourite characters, so I'm still holding out hope Dean will help Cas somehow.

He did, but it would have been more believable with the impact of everything had we've been shown the supportive attitude from Dean the entire season. Because we've never seen that, Dean has been treating Castiel like shit nearly this whole time and every time Castiel tries to mention his hardships with this war, he just merely dismisses it. So I could get behind the impact more had there been something prior for us to feel bad about Dean feeling a little betrayed by Castiel at this point.

But the reality is, there was nothing there to feel sorry for Dean when he's been an inconsiderate jackass this whole time.

I want to be optimistic that their relationship will be repaired and patched up soon, but it would rely on trust with the writers however I don't trust them aside from Ben Edlund (who rocked this episode out, even if many things didn't match up to the rest of the season at all.) I just wished the show would acknowledge their mistakes because they get called out on it many times, however they just hand-wave it and never address it again. That's lazy writing, imo.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

It's disappointing and infuriating because many other shows deal with character angst too, but they manage to let characters grow while still making (new) mistakes and learning from them too. It's just this show that fails on multiple levels in actually progressing to that stage. I've come to the point where I don't care about the Winchesters and their petty issues. It's just repeated over and over again while other character developments (ex. Castiel's, for example) are left unacknowledged by them.

I mean, I think with this season we only had the Bobby-centric episode and this Castiel-centric episode which focused on them, not the Winchesters. More of that, less focus on the Winchesters, or at least integrate it all together as they should be.

Also that clip? So depressing to watch after last nights episode. :(

I know. :( I had thought about that speech after the episode aired last night and when I went to watch it I started crying all over again. Because it's so true to how the boys have been treating Castiel all season. But then again, most of BSG is like that because they call out many things, and you know what? Characters grow from it. I wish SPN was the same.

Then again, BSG is superb television, so....

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Wow, I didn't realise how fitting that speech was for this weeks episode until just now. I wish we could bring Lee over and have him deliver a similar one to Dean.

It may be lazy writing, but mainly I have accepted the Winchester boys' unwilingness (or inability) to learn, and once, just once see things from a different perspective, as an integral part of their flawed characters. As part of the tragic of it all, because they go through that over and over, and still make the same mistakes, because they just can't see.
The only real problem I have with this is that I'm afraid I'm starting to dislike them for it. And that's something that shouldn't happen with the main characters of a show.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I've already been disliking them most of this season, but it was this particular episode that really cemented that dislike further because they just can't think outside of their own feelings and not even attempt to understand why Castiel was doing what he was doing. That pissed me off to no end. Like honestly Dean and Sam, like you have room to talk. :/

After the episode aired, I kept thinking about this clip and it just rings so painfully true. I wished this show would acknowledge these faults and flaws of all the characters in a brave manner.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm still clinging to the love I had for them for years, and to reminding myself that they DID sacrifice a lot, but... it's getting harder by the episode. If anything happens to Cas because they abandoned him when he needed them most, I don't think I'll ever be able to forgive them.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

If this season ends without there being some remorse on their end, without the brothers acknowledging the hardships Castiel has gone through and actually giving a heartfelt apology for how harshly they acted towards him....that's it. That would be it for me and I definitely won't be forgiving them until they do.

Castiel deserves better than how they've been treating him all season long.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Castiel definitely deseves better. He deserves some trust and - as much as Dean's words about Cas being like a brother to him warmed my heart - he deserves to be treated like family.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I think this recent episode has reaffirmed my position that Castiel is the most tragic character of the show. Simply for everything that he's gone through, still is going through, and how nobody is there to listen to him to understand what he is going through. :(

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

[...] and how nobody is there to listen to him to understand what he is going through. :(

Balthazar.
He may not have the full grasp on free will and its consequences, and he may not be able to offer Castiel the kind of support Dean should be offering him. But he loves Castiel, and from everything we have seen of him so far, I'm convinced he will be right there. :)

[cottoncandy86.livejournal.com]

I tried to get over the Winchesters selfishness. But I've been in a state of semi annoyance with them all season. After Friday's ep; I was just like "Screw you Winchesters" lol I just can't even..anymore.

I think I'm more hurt over that than anything else. And I can just see Cas still trying to help them because that's what he does. But what's he ever gotten in return? When has he ever ASKED anything in return? And I think it's inevitable that he'll sacrifice himself in some way in the finale. And the Winchesters still won't get it. I guarantee not one tear will be shed. I have no hope that anything will change in S7.

I mean, I don't hate them. But I've said loads of times that the writers outright acknowledge within the episodes that the brothers are being jerks sometime. But they never go anywhere with it. They never let them redeem themselves. Why even bring it up? This season has been especially bad with that.

And whenever it comes to the supporting characters; Booby and Cas, they just drop the ball almost every time. Why can't they understand? I still WANT to love them like I used to, but they make it so hard sometime. Cas has taken over my heart :(

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Of course Castiel will still do anything, absolutely ANYTHING to help Dean. That's just who he is, and that's just how much he loves Dean, no matter how badly the hunter treats him.

I have some hope after last weeks episode, because there finally was some true emotion on Dean's part at least, but still no real attempt to understand where Castiel is coming from, why he HAD to do what he did. Why can't Dean at least try to look at this from a different perspective? Just this once!

I still WANT to love them like I used to, but they make it so hard sometime. Cas has taken over my heart :(
Same here.

[mulder200.livejournal.com]

Good minds think alike.

It's so funny because I was just thinking to myself how annoying it that the boys still have this black and white morality mindset when dealing when on shows like Buffy The Vampire Slayer and Angel, the main characters start out as black and white and then grow and change and realize that the world is many shades of gray. Nothing is ever simple and clear cut as it seems.

Unfortunately, I am afraid that the Winchesters will never learn this lesson which is more the pity. More the pity.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

It really is a pity, and even more outrageous because the show has made statements about the Winchesters being self-absorbed and only thinking about themselves rather than considering others or certain situations....and yet, nothing is done to prove that they have learned their lessons or mention anything like that to them again. It's like, what's the point then? Why continue to bring something like that up when it's pointless? Like when Bobby called them out in "Weekend At Bobby's", and when Rachel called them out, but they still cannot see passed their own selfish needs.

They really do have a simplistic mindset, despite what they've personally dealt with firsthand. You'd think that would shift and make them evolve, but nope. It hasn't, and after six season they probably never will. It truly is a damn shame because I would have more respect for the show if they addressed these issues more and dealt with them properly.

[sweetsyren.livejournal.com]

*applauds*

Yes. All of this.

they cannot see outside their own bubble and that's the infuriating part especially after watching last night's episode and seeing the hurt and dismay Castiel was going through, and how they failed at trying to understand his side.

As much as I love them and I do, this is precisely my issue with them. It's all self-centred anger and hurt and "I don't want to hear it! Just do as I say!" ... Especially from Dean.

I love you dor using this clip. Now i'm going to go back and get into BSG again because it was so awesome.

Also? Does that seem right to you? Nice firefly reference.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

As much as I love them and I do, this is precisely my issue with them. It's all self-centred anger and hurt and "I don't want to hear it! Just do as I say!" ... Especially from Dean.

I expected more understanding from Dean, however both he and Sam (and shockingly Bobby, as well) shunned Castiel without even hearing his side of the story. I just don't understand why. Granted I'm sure there's hurt from learning the truth, but did they have to go to such extremes? Everything from the holy ring of fire to the angel banishing sigils and even threatening to kill him was a complete overreaction, and I just don't get it.

I wish they would listen for once instead of going off the deep end.

I hate this aspect about them, and being in the sixth season they should know better. Emotions can get the better of them and they overreact, however they should understand Castiel's situation because they have been there before. They have been to that utterly desperate place and did reckless things when they thought it was the only option. I just, gah. :( This is their flaw that they have, but I just can't accept that as an excuse anymore. Because they are grown men, they shouldn't be playing these games anymore.

I love you dor using this clip. Now i'm going to go back and get into BSG again because it was so awesome.

I had to, and besides with BSG they do post-apocalyptic angst right, and these moments, these moments and speeches showing character development, of characters questioning their morality in times of war...this is something I return to when things on Supernatural piss me off.

Also? Does that seem right to you? Nice firefly reference.

Hee. Not gonna lie, when I was writing that I totally thought it in Jubal Early's voice. ;)

[sweetsyren.livejournal.com]

(and shockingly Bobby, as well)

FUCKING THIS! I was shocked when I saw how he didn't even listen. And I agree, and although I can see the need for the circle (keeping Cas in place long enough to hear him out without him flapping off if he didn't want to hear it. I get that.) the sigils and the threats were well out of order. Deans flaw has always been his black and white view of the world but he forgives his brothers discretions so why not his angels? I mean he called him brother and then, in the next breath, threatened him.

It's frustrating but I suppose character growth has to be sacrificed for plot movement at this point.

BSG was a thing of beauty, ngl. It was one of those things that just stands head and shoulders and shows off just what writers can do if they're given free reign. It's a shame the SPN writers aren't allowed the same sort of latitude. Still...let us both go to the happy BSG place.

Jubal Early was amazing. Firefly was amazing. I miss it so...

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

It's frustrating but I suppose character growth has to be sacrificed for plot movement at this point.

See, this is what frustrates me about this show. Too many times they have sacrificed character growth, characterizations, potential storylines just for the sake of getting the season done. They had so many opportunities this season to show Dean actually giving a damn about Castiel, to show there being something more than him and Sam taking advantage of Castiel's unconditional helpfulness and support. Just, they've missed so much and now they are just rushing things along just to get to the end of the season and that's just bullshit to me.

I love BSG, sfm. It's my favorite television series ever, and I'm not exaggerating. It was a perfect example of how epic television should be. Perhaps I've been spoiled because I watch things like BSG and expect shows likes SPN to be the same, therefore I expect too much, idk.

Jubal Early was amazing. Firefly was amazing. I miss it so...

I miss Firefly, too. Another example of great television.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

OH MY GOD. NOW I'M CRYING.

SERIOUSLY. UNLESS THIS IS PURPOSEFULLY DONE TO SHOW HOW IMPULSIVELY STUPID THE WINCHESTERS ARE WITH THEIR RASH ACCUSATIONS AND SHUNNING OUT THOSE WHO THEY DON'T AGREE WITH, HOW COULD DEAN FORGET ALL OF THAT IF HE CONSIDERED CASTIEL NOT JUST A FRIEND BUT PART OF THE FAMILY? HE DIDN'T EVEN LISTEN TO CAS. JUST BANISHED HIM. JUST, WHAT? D: CASTIEL DOESN'T DESERVE THIS. HE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING REMOTELY SO HORRIBLE FOR THEM TO BANISH HIM AND ACT THE WAY THEY DID, WITH THE WARDING SIGILS AND WHATNOT. AND DEAN'S WORDS TO HIM AT THE END, JUST, GODDAMMIT. D: D: D:

YOU'RE RIGHT, IT REALLY TRULY ISN'T FAIR AND I HOPE SOMEONE CALLS THEM OUT ON IT, OTHERWISE.... :(

AND THIS IS WHY I CHOOSE THAT SPEECH SPECIFICALLY. IT'S SO REAL TO WHAT CASTIEL IS GOING THROUGH AND HOW HYPOCRITICAL THE WINCHESTERS ARE BEING. I JUST, YEAH.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

ITA BB. IT'S TOTAL BULLSHIT AND I CANNOT BELIEVE ALL THIS HAPPENED TO HIM, AND THEY HAVEN'T EVEN LISTENED TO HIM SPEAK. THAT'S THE THING. THERE WAS NO CHANCE FOR HIM TO CORRECTLY GIVE HIS STORY TO THEM, NOT LIKE HE DID THROUGHOUT THE EPISODE TO US (AND GOD), HIS CONFESSION. WHEN IS IT NEVER ENOUGH FOR THEM? HOW MUCH DOES CASTIEL HAS TO PROVE HIS WORTH, HOW MANY TIMES DOES HE HAVE TO SACRIFICE EVERYTHING, TO DIE, TO RISK HIS ENTIRE EXISTENCE FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HE'S BEEN GOING THROUGH? JUST, GODDAMMIT.

I CAN'T, I CAN'T. ;___;

SLIGHTLY RANDOMLY: Y'KNOW, I DOUBT THE SHOW INTENDED THIS... BUT DEAN BASICALLY OFFERED CASTIEL THE SAME CHOICE RAPHAEL DID AT THE END OF THE EPISODE: SUBMIT OR DIE. :|

OH GOD, HE DID DIDN'T HE? NOW IT REALLY IS A QUESTION WHETHER CASTIEL IS WILLING TO LOSE THIS WAR OR IF HE'S WILLING TO LOSE HIS BOND AND FRIENDSHIP WITH THE WINCHESTERS? D: D: D:

SERIOUSLY, I CAN'T TAKE THIS ANYMORE.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

AND I SERIOUSLY HAVE NO RECOLLECTION OF THIS, BUT DIDN'T DEAN SAY "BLAHBLAH RAPHAEL" TO CAS? YEAH. NO. STFU, DEAN.

HE DID. I WANTED TO PUNCH DEAN FOR THAT ALONE. >:|

JUST SERIOUSLY, NO WONDER CASTIEL IS CONFESSING EVERYTHING TO GOD -- WHO MAY OR MAY NOT BE LISTENING -- BECAUSE HE'S GOT NO ONE ELSE TO TURN TO. HE'S AT A CROSSROADS AND IT'S EITHER HE SUBMITS TO ONE SIDE OR HE DOES AND IT'S JUST, OMG CAS! D: D:

PERHAPS THIS IS JUST ME BEING EMOTIONAL, BUT IF THERE WAS ANY CHANCE FOR A FICTIONAL CHARACTER TO BECOME REAL SO WE CAN COMFORT HIM, NOW WOULD BE THE PERFECT TIME. :(

*hugs and comforts our bb angel*

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

OH AND ALSO, DIDN'T DEAN CALL CASTIEL A "CHILD" TOO? HE'S BEEN CALLING CASTIEL A "CHILD" SEVERAL TIMES THIS SEASON, HASN'T IT?

WHAT THE FUCK?

[sweetsyren.livejournal.com]

OH FOR THE LOVE OF FUCK. I CAN'T EVEN.

*SOBS WITH YOU*

SO DRAMATIC TODAY - WHERE IS MY FUCKING FAINTING COUCH?

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

DEAN FUCKING SAYS BLANKET APOLOGY FOR ALL THE CRAP THAT ANYBODY'S DONE ALL AROUND

I didn't even think of that any more. That just makes it so much worse. Obviously blanket apologies are either only valid for humans, or they're only valid until Dean decides he's not in the mood any more.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Perhaps Dean thinks because Castiel is an angel, he should know better. However, Dean has seen Castiel question and doubt, has seen him hit rock bottom before. Castiel (and other angels, as we've seen) are capable of making mistakes but are also capable at redeeming themselves at the same time too. So I don't get the entire "it's only acceptable when I say so" attitude the Winchesters are having lately.

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Well, wouldn't that almost be flattering then... if it weren't so damn stupid. Particularly with Dean's "What happened to you, Cas? You used to be human, or at least like one." earlier this season.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Dean's remarks this season have been the most offensive, and for no particular reason whatsoever. That line pissed me off then and it still does now because it's simply uncalled for. Plus, did you see Castiel's hurt looks every time Dean says something flippantly like that? :(

Hug your angel, don't verbally abuse him, ffs. :/

[gwaevalarin.livejournal.com]

Of all the offensive shit Dean threw at Cas this season, this line was one of the worst. How could Dean say that, when Castiel was standing there, hurt and struggling with emotions so incredibly human?
That one, and last week, when he basically called Castiel useless without his powers. That was just cruel, and I really don't know what Dean is thinking or if he is thinking at all.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Castiel has presented more humanity than the Winchesters have all season. What exactly is that saying about them?

[sixphanel.livejournal.com]

Gah, that speech... :_)

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I love this speech. Granted I love all the speeches made on BSG since they're all so amazing, but something about Lee giving this speech at Baltar's trial really made an impact on me when I first watched it.

[carameltrap.livejournal.com]

It's great when a character starts out flawed as it means the character will learn and developed into someone better along the way. S6 had been so incredibly frustrating.

After six seasons, I would have expected the Winchesters to be better than who they first were. I like that they have problems but not when they're always in the same old, same old. It doesn't endear me to them and makes it so incredibly difficult to just simply overlook their flaws and love them just because they're Sam and Dean. I don't want to see them remain the same as they were from past seasons. I want to see them grow and learn, become better persons instead of these self-centered, self-entitled and self-righteous dicks who can't see beyond themselves and their little world.

The writers are also at fault for the Winchesters' inconsistent behaviour.

This ended up being a tl;dr rant. I'm sorry. TAT

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I don't mind tl;dr replies, so don't worry bb. ;)

It really has gotten old, their same-old routine of caring only about themselves and their little world instead of looking at the bigger picture of how everything is connected. Even last season, they didn't seem to take the apocalypse seriously until the very end. It just has gotten to the point where it's tiring, where we just don't care about their troubles when there are bigger things happening around them.

I love flawed characters, but remaining flawed and not learning from their mistakes and growing from their experiences is just irritating and makes me unsympathetic towards them. They've become unbearable and unlikeable at this point in the series, and it's just enough already. :|

[carameltrap.livejournal.com]

It's like they just slide backwards instead of going forward or remain stagnant. No growth on their parts at all.

They're all a bunch of hypocrites. They were working with demons not so long ago and giving Castiel grief just because he's doing the same? Pot, kettle, black. Don't call someone family when you turn around and say/do things differently to that person.

It's gotten to the point where I have no patience to watch or hear what they have to say or even care about them.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

The thing is, I don't know if this is deliberate choice the show is making in order to throw the Winchesters a curveball at recognizing their own self-entitlement at some point, or if they are just doing this for the ~angst~ and ~drama~ and just because. Since I can't see how anything they've done is justifiable to what they did to Castiel in this recent episode.

Unless they realize their faults by the end of the season, I'm done with their bullshit. Just done.

I THINK ILU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BB.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

SO MUCH THAT YOU GET THE ADMIRAL APPLAUDING YOU:



AND A STANDING OVATION:



SERIOUSLY AND I WILL SAY THIS MUCH: THIS NEEDS TO BE POSTED AND REPOSTED EVERYWHERE FOR EVERYONE TO SEE BECAUSE THIS IS JUST GLORIOUS AND NAYSAYERS CAN STFU BECAUSE THIS IS ABSOLUTELY FUCKING TRUE. LEE'S SPEECH + YOU HAVING TO REWRITE IT SO IT FITS WITH THE CASTIEL SITUATION JUST....FITS SO PERFECTLY, PAINFULLY PERFECTLY.

I AM CRYING RIGHT NOW READING IT. LEGIT TEARS.

Re: I THINK ILU SO MUCH RIGHT NOW, BB.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I KNOW RIGHT? I WOULD LOVE TO JUST GO INTO THAT WORLD, BITCHSLAP THE BOYS FOR BEING IDIOTS AND RECITE THIS ENTIRE THING TO THEM AND MAKE THEM FUCKING THINK FOR ONCE.

AND THEN I'D GIVE CASTIEL A HUGE HUG BECAUSE HE NEEDS ONE. MORE THAN ONE. HELL, I'D NEVER LET GO.

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

Wow I hate how painfully predictable this show has gotten. Meh, I was actually kind of digging the last couple of eps but this has really turned me off. Again. The reason why Dean and the others never grow is that the writers don't know how to write anything beyond what they have. They don't have what it takes to bring these characters to new heights and dynamic characterization and that is really sad.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I have a feeling that had Edlund wrote the majority of this season things would have been different, things would have made sense continuity-wise and the emotional punch and feelings of betrayal would have been justified. Since he seems to understand the character interactions better than Gamble or any other writer on this show anymore, and even when it seems like he was trying to fix what this season failed at doing, only it just doesn't add up.

I mean as predictable as the Winchesters have become from their simplistic mindset and stupidity, this episode was pretty amazing and it showed the kind of conflict Castiel was going through and it just was so heartbreaking. I never felt so emotionally connected to a character like I have watching this episode....and it just makes me more angry at the Winchesters for only thinking about themselves instead of others for once.

[kalikahuntress.livejournal.com]

I still plan on watching the ep; there have been rave reviews everywhere for it. It would be better if Ben was the show-runner.

[cottoncandy86.livejournal.com]

I found it interesting because I thought 'oh no he's gonna tell them about Fate and killing Rachel and the titantic AU and they'll be so upset'. Ironically those things would be semi in their right to be upset and or shocked about but he never even got to that. I thought we would have a full on confession. So it just shows what idiots they are that they got so upset (over the least shocking part of his story at that) and they didn't even know the half of it. If they overreacted to just him lying about Crowley, they probably would have just knifed him right there over all that.. Since overreaction and whining is their speciality. Stupid Winchesters.

I still love you Cas bb. You can use my soul if you want. Forget the winchesters.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Overreaction and whining are definitely their specialty, and it's no longer cute or acceptable with them. It's one thing to show how flawed they are, it's another to have them repeat the same shit over and over without them understanding these flaws and trying to overcome it. They are grown men, have them act like it, ffs. :|