Fandom ups and downs.
Aug. 13th, 2021 08:47 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rogueslayer452Taken from the Crunchy Questions Meme:
What are some improvements that have occurred within the fandom community over the years? What are things that you wish would cease or that people would stop doing?
I would say one improvement would probably be the ceasing of snark communities, where the entire purpose was to mock fans, particularly younger fans, for the fanworks they created. Now, I enjoy a good snark, but the lines can blur easily into just being plain mean-spirited and unfortunately that's what a lot of those communities ended up becoming. And looking back, while it can be fun to mock mainstream entertainment MST3k-style it's not a good idea to do that with fan-created works, especially without their knowledge or permission which was sadly very common back in the day. I have no doubt that stuff like this still exists, since hate communities in general still exist no matter the platform, it's just not as widely known or accessible as it used to be back in the day, which is good. Fandom is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, and seeing hate towards fans, even in a mocking way, can be incredibly discouraging.
I also think that blatant internalized misogyny has lessened over the years. It obviously still does exist, unfortunately, but I also think there's more conversation surrounding the topic of defending female characters (and actresses/performers/creators/etc) and examining this kind of toxic mindset. There's less mockery of Mary Sues, bashing of female characters in fanfiction is greatly frowned upon, and so on.
At the same time, though, I do think that while some things have improved much has also remained the same, just repackaged differently with the social climate we're currently in.
Like yes, internalized misogyny has lessened in certain fandom circles, but it has also created this toxic positive mentality where no criticism or examination of the flaws and nuances of female characters should exist, that women, fictional and real alike, are queens and flawless goddesses that can do no wrong, which is just incredibly dehumanizing and is just as bad as outright hating on them for no reason. This is doubly so for WOC, as well, which yes racism in fandom is still a massive problem that needs to be addressed but this is not the way of combatting it. There are other examples of this, but essentially the gist is that we went from one extreme to a complete 180 into another extreme which is rather counterproductive in fandom spaces where discussions of these particular topics need to be addressed rather than brushed aside or treated like some shallow hot take on social media, be it internalized misogyny/homophobia, generational gaps in the overall fandom community, attitudes towards fanworks vs mainstream media and the influence they both have as a whole, etc. The latter especially since it is very much tied with purity culture, which needs to be eradicated, as far as I'm concerned. Purity culture, and all it entails, has done nothing good for anyone, fandom and non-fandom alike, and seeing so many people repeat these ideologies and views across all sorts of places is deeply concerning to me, to be honest.
So yeah, I think that this gradual shift within the fandom community over the years has been something that has been bothering me for a long time. Whether or not this was the natural state of progression of fandom as platforms and online interaction changed, who knows, it could very well have been inevitable. So while I think some things have improved, other things really haven't, either having gotten worse or more or less remained the same. I do think that, with all things, it will always fluctuate as time goes on, we'll have our ups and downs, improvements and setbacks.
So yeah, this kind of got long, longer than I initially intended, and it's not even everything that I wanted to include because I do have specific examples that I wanted to get into more with things that do need more improvement within the online fandom community, but that will have to wait for another day. I had certain thoughts I needed to write out, I just hope that it was coherent enough to make sense.
What are some improvements that have occurred within the fandom community over the years? What are things that you wish would cease or that people would stop doing?
I would say one improvement would probably be the ceasing of snark communities, where the entire purpose was to mock fans, particularly younger fans, for the fanworks they created. Now, I enjoy a good snark, but the lines can blur easily into just being plain mean-spirited and unfortunately that's what a lot of those communities ended up becoming. And looking back, while it can be fun to mock mainstream entertainment MST3k-style it's not a good idea to do that with fan-created works, especially without their knowledge or permission which was sadly very common back in the day. I have no doubt that stuff like this still exists, since hate communities in general still exist no matter the platform, it's just not as widely known or accessible as it used to be back in the day, which is good. Fandom is supposed to be fun and enjoyable, and seeing hate towards fans, even in a mocking way, can be incredibly discouraging.
I also think that blatant internalized misogyny has lessened over the years. It obviously still does exist, unfortunately, but I also think there's more conversation surrounding the topic of defending female characters (and actresses/performers/creators/etc) and examining this kind of toxic mindset. There's less mockery of Mary Sues, bashing of female characters in fanfiction is greatly frowned upon, and so on.
At the same time, though, I do think that while some things have improved much has also remained the same, just repackaged differently with the social climate we're currently in.
Like yes, internalized misogyny has lessened in certain fandom circles, but it has also created this toxic positive mentality where no criticism or examination of the flaws and nuances of female characters should exist, that women, fictional and real alike, are queens and flawless goddesses that can do no wrong, which is just incredibly dehumanizing and is just as bad as outright hating on them for no reason. This is doubly so for WOC, as well, which yes racism in fandom is still a massive problem that needs to be addressed but this is not the way of combatting it. There are other examples of this, but essentially the gist is that we went from one extreme to a complete 180 into another extreme which is rather counterproductive in fandom spaces where discussions of these particular topics need to be addressed rather than brushed aside or treated like some shallow hot take on social media, be it internalized misogyny/homophobia, generational gaps in the overall fandom community, attitudes towards fanworks vs mainstream media and the influence they both have as a whole, etc. The latter especially since it is very much tied with purity culture, which needs to be eradicated, as far as I'm concerned. Purity culture, and all it entails, has done nothing good for anyone, fandom and non-fandom alike, and seeing so many people repeat these ideologies and views across all sorts of places is deeply concerning to me, to be honest.
So yeah, I think that this gradual shift within the fandom community over the years has been something that has been bothering me for a long time. Whether or not this was the natural state of progression of fandom as platforms and online interaction changed, who knows, it could very well have been inevitable. So while I think some things have improved, other things really haven't, either having gotten worse or more or less remained the same. I do think that, with all things, it will always fluctuate as time goes on, we'll have our ups and downs, improvements and setbacks.
So yeah, this kind of got long, longer than I initially intended, and it's not even everything that I wanted to include because I do have specific examples that I wanted to get into more with things that do need more improvement within the online fandom community, but that will have to wait for another day. I had certain thoughts I needed to write out, I just hope that it was coherent enough to make sense.
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
Re: Pt 2
Date: 2021-08-15 06:52 pm (UTC)In a way, yeah. Because it's true, not everyone in a marginalized group is the same nor do they share the same experiences or hold the same views or opinions.
But characters should be people, and if you can't write a marginalized character as a person, then that's a huge problem.
Exactly. And not even with just writing them, but in general treating them like they're human beings rather than putting them up on these pedestals. Just because they're part of a marginalized group doesn't mean they're better than anyone else, and acting or treating them like they are is incredibly insulting.
Attitudes in fandom can be very toxic whenever someone takes a misstep or makes the smallest mistake, and suddenly they are vilifying the person they were praising a moment ago because the flawed version of their character didn't line up to what they envisioned them to be, or worse, are policing other fans for simply acknowledging these flaws and looking at the nuances of their character that doesn't paint them in a perfect light. I've witnessed this happen a lot, and it's exhausting as it is infuriating to see over and over again.
I hate that purity culture is a thing, and I really hate how much I fell for it at one point in time. Strikes me as strang that fandom has that problem when it's otherwise pretty progressive, but then, fandom always had pretty socially conservative corners, even fandoms you'd think wouldn't.
It's honestly really scary, because purity culture is a mixture of a lot of really horrible movements while attempting to paint themselves as progressive and enlightened, when in reality they are just following typical conservative rhetoric and ideology that is taking massive steps backwards instead of forwards.
I do often wonder how much of it is a farce, people only following the trends as in not to get harassed or ostracized by others (and even then that's concerning because it's very cult-like in that way), and how much of it is people genuinely believing in what they're saying, but even if it's just a very loud vocal minority spread across the Internet, I do worry about those who genuinely follow in this mindset since it often feels like they're thisclose to advocating for abstinence only education and encouraging book burnings and wanting to start purity balls/purity rings because "protect the children!" I can tell you anyone who starts with the "protect the children" claim doesn't actually care about children. They've only convinced themselves they do to justify their actions and behaviors, and even upping the ante a bit with certain buzzwords and phrases to elicit a certain reaction from others.
(There are ways of having conversations and finding better solutions to how things are handled online and in media regarding children, especially with social media and its influence, but that? Is not the way to go.)
RE: Re: Pt 2
Date: 2021-08-15 11:19 pm (UTC)Geez — you're absolutely right. That's very degrading and just as bad.
Attitudes in fandom can be very toxic whenever someone takes a misstep or makes the smallest mistake, and suddenly they are vilifying the person they were praising a moment ago because the flawed version of their character didn't line up to what they envisioned them to be, or worse, are policing other fans for simply acknowledging these flaws and looking at the nuances of their character that doesn't paint them in a perfect light. I've witnessed this happen a lot, and it's exhausting as it is infuriating to see over and over again.
Yeesh. Where is this happening? Tumblr? Ao3? I haven't seen it on Ao3. But again, the fandom is a bit older, and while I think they're very understanding of current social issues, it's not to that level. Or maybe I just haven't noticed it yet? There IS a tumblr presence I probably should check out, but haven't. Maybe I'll start updating my tumblr though. Now that we've just acknowledged all the wankfest. ;) No, but I agree, that's a problem.
I can tell you anyone who starts with the "protect the children" claim doesn't actually care about children. They've only convinced themselves they do to justify their actions and behaviors, and even upping the ante a bit with certain buzzwords and phrases to elicit a certain reaction from others.
Yeah, or "family values." Though I have once or twice heard people use language like that for actually good causes, so I guess don't do the faux woke thing and assume either. But be aware of the buzzwords and that while some people may mean them innocently, others may not.
The other thing is that it's very easy for impressionable young people to fall for certain ideas without necessarily even realizing what they're buying into. That 100% happened to me. Not all of it was online, sadly a lot of it was at school because... 'merica, but either way, younger people — especially from privileged situations — may not even question what they're being told, or how they're being told.
I do often wonder how much of it is a farce, people only following the trends as in not to get harassed or ostracized by others (and even then that's concerning because it's very cult-like in that way),
Honestly, I think in general people often know it's wrong, or at least going too far, but no one wants to say anything. I'd say it's generally fear of ostracization, and maybe at times just waiting for someone else to begin the objections. Then they'll feel safe. No one wants to be the first to stick their head out, you know? But I also think people tend to go along with things until it affects them. And you're right, there is something cult-like about it. At the very least, it can get pretty toxic very fast, and it makes it hard when you DO break apart, because you may or may not have support in doing so.
Re: Pt 2
Date: 2021-08-16 03:05 am (UTC)I personally haven't seen much of that on Tumblr (because I curate the hell out of my space there), only circulating posts referencing some of whatever drama may be happening. Some of it is just general or generic things, some might be inspired by something specific someone saw. I mostly think it's a general kind of thing, sometimes you'll see something in that tags and want to address that kind of attitude (ex: like how people will vilify female characters for being "annoying" despite praising male characters for having those same traits, something that hasn't completely gone away).
Though I highly suspect that you'll see a lot of that kind of attitude over on Twitter, because, well, people are incredibly reactionary there and the toxicity there is just overwhelming.
Maybe I'll start updating my tumblr though.
Oh, you have a Tumblr account?
But be aware of the buzzwords and that while some people may mean them innocently, others may not.
The problem, I find, is that there's a lot of people who take specific words or phrases that are meant for something and completely twist it to fit whatever narrative or agenda they have, and oftentimes it gets so misused, bastardized, and watered down that it loses all meaning despite the initial importance of those words. It sadly happens in a lot of areas, not just with purity culture rhetoric.
But yes, we need to be aware of how those words/phrases are used and in what context and learn how to spot when someone is twisting those phrases for their own agenda. And sadly, it's true, that the younger someone is the harder it will be to look out for those warning signs because they are more susceptible to being indoctrinated into that mindset.
At the very least, it can get pretty toxic very fast, and it makes it hard when you DO break apart, because you may or may not have support in doing so.
Especially if someone was doing a lot of harm towards others, either because they truly believed what they were doing was right or because they were afraid and just following what everyone else was doing, and that they've burned so many bridges that they have nowhere to really turn to, which can be very scary especially when you're young. Like, whether online or in real life, that can be very hard to really grapple with. Fortunately, I have seen some areas supporting people who come out from that particular mindset, and even people willingly coming out with their own personal stories about leaving that toxic community, which is great.