Meta: Responsibility should lie where?
Sep. 3rd, 2010 01:54 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
rogueslayer452Okay, I've run across this argument several times in fandom regarding Castiel's involvement in the Apocalypse, and whether or not he should apologize for being somewhat responsible for what happened in the fourth season. This has come up time and again, mostly with debates about his character in general.
Here's what I have to say: Castiel doesn't need to apologize for anything.
It's not that he's not responsible, they all are in many ways, but he's practically proven himself multiple times in redeeming himself from those past wrongs ever since the fourth season finale. He rebelled against Heaven for humanity, he died in protecting the Winchesters, he fought on their side, he killed his brothers and risked himself over and over again, even in times of doubt and despair he still fought alongside them and what they believed in, even risking losing his grace for them. Isn't that enough in convincing that he's making up for those things he wanted to do, but couldn't, based on the upper hand in Heaven? I think many people are forgetting that regardless of what happened, everyone was a pawn to ensure the Apocalypse and the unleashing of Lucifer happened. I mean, surely Castiel could apologize for letting Sam out of the panic room, but what would that accomplish? It would be moot point right now considering all what he's done for the boys since then, and quite frankly I believe actions speak louder than words.
Some people are still hung up on Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room dealio, and while yes bad, but if Castiel hadn't done it another angel would have. It was an inevitable incident that, once again, they all played their part in no matter what. It's almost like people complaining about Castiel "manipulating Dean" in the very same episode. Never mind that those were his orders that he clearly was reluctant on obeying, but had to considering he was held on a very short leash by his superiors. Castiel was torn between wanting to do the right thing and following orders, which he knows the consequences for disobeying; he was growing and learning, he was afraid and rightfully so knowing the manipulative ways Heaven operates. He clearly had remorse, he was tormented with having to do those things but it was like Heaven was placing a gun to his head forcing him to otherwise dire consequences would occur. He had no choice, until Dean convinced him that he did in the finale. Remember, Castiel (and many other angels in fact) weren't given the inside scoop about the true motives the higher superiors were up to regarding the Apocalypse, hence why they were all given to believe they were doing things for the good, until Castiel had discovered it was not the case, which led to him being "retrained" and punished in Heaven and doing those things that he did.
It also reminds me how angry I was at Anna when she came back in S5 to blame Castiel for letting her get caught when, hello, wasn't she the one who previously mentioned that if Castiel had gotten dragged back to Heaven unwillingly it was bad, really bad? Never mind that he did tell her that she shouldn't have arrived, so she should have understood the circumstances he was under despite all of that. She should have known better, especially if she was a so-called "former superior" and all, but no. She blamed him instead of herself in that matter. Another reason why I dislike her character, but that's neither here nor there at this moment.
So in conclusion to this argument, was Castiel responsible for some things happening? In ways yes, as they all were. But he shouldn't need to apologize when he's already made countless amends for everything through his actions since all of that. Think of all he's done for the Winchesters, for humanity, what he's sacrificed and gave up. People should be focusing on what he's done rather than dwelling on a previous incident.
Just needed to get that off my chest.
Other than that, it appears that Creation Entertainment has really pushed the Miracle Button because, come January 2011, Supernatural will be coming to San Francisco! Guys, this is literally right next door to me. \O/\O/ The main reason why I initially went to LACon was because it was the closest convention there would be without having to travel all the way across the country to go to, and lo and behold they've put them even closer. I didn't even realize it until someone on my flist mentioned it a few days ago. This is just awesome. Although come to Sacramento next, will ya guys? The only convention here is Twilight-based and that's kind of insulting, really. We need more variety.
Guess who might be going now that the offer is right in my backyard? ;D
Here's what I have to say: Castiel doesn't need to apologize for anything.
It's not that he's not responsible, they all are in many ways, but he's practically proven himself multiple times in redeeming himself from those past wrongs ever since the fourth season finale. He rebelled against Heaven for humanity, he died in protecting the Winchesters, he fought on their side, he killed his brothers and risked himself over and over again, even in times of doubt and despair he still fought alongside them and what they believed in, even risking losing his grace for them. Isn't that enough in convincing that he's making up for those things he wanted to do, but couldn't, based on the upper hand in Heaven? I think many people are forgetting that regardless of what happened, everyone was a pawn to ensure the Apocalypse and the unleashing of Lucifer happened. I mean, surely Castiel could apologize for letting Sam out of the panic room, but what would that accomplish? It would be moot point right now considering all what he's done for the boys since then, and quite frankly I believe actions speak louder than words.
Some people are still hung up on Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room dealio, and while yes bad, but if Castiel hadn't done it another angel would have. It was an inevitable incident that, once again, they all played their part in no matter what. It's almost like people complaining about Castiel "manipulating Dean" in the very same episode. Never mind that those were his orders that he clearly was reluctant on obeying, but had to considering he was held on a very short leash by his superiors. Castiel was torn between wanting to do the right thing and following orders, which he knows the consequences for disobeying; he was growing and learning, he was afraid and rightfully so knowing the manipulative ways Heaven operates. He clearly had remorse, he was tormented with having to do those things but it was like Heaven was placing a gun to his head forcing him to otherwise dire consequences would occur. He had no choice, until Dean convinced him that he did in the finale. Remember, Castiel (and many other angels in fact) weren't given the inside scoop about the true motives the higher superiors were up to regarding the Apocalypse, hence why they were all given to believe they were doing things for the good, until Castiel had discovered it was not the case, which led to him being "retrained" and punished in Heaven and doing those things that he did.
It also reminds me how angry I was at Anna when she came back in S5 to blame Castiel for letting her get caught when, hello, wasn't she the one who previously mentioned that if Castiel had gotten dragged back to Heaven unwillingly it was bad, really bad? Never mind that he did tell her that she shouldn't have arrived, so she should have understood the circumstances he was under despite all of that. She should have known better, especially if she was a so-called "former superior" and all, but no. She blamed him instead of herself in that matter. Another reason why I dislike her character, but that's neither here nor there at this moment.
So in conclusion to this argument, was Castiel responsible for some things happening? In ways yes, as they all were. But he shouldn't need to apologize when he's already made countless amends for everything through his actions since all of that. Think of all he's done for the Winchesters, for humanity, what he's sacrificed and gave up. People should be focusing on what he's done rather than dwelling on a previous incident.
Just needed to get that off my chest.
Other than that, it appears that Creation Entertainment has really pushed the Miracle Button because, come January 2011, Supernatural will be coming to San Francisco! Guys, this is literally right next door to me. \O/\O/ The main reason why I initially went to LACon was because it was the closest convention there would be without having to travel all the way across the country to go to, and lo and behold they've put them even closer. I didn't even realize it until someone on my flist mentioned it a few days ago. This is just awesome. Although come to Sacramento next, will ya guys? The only convention here is Twilight-based and that's kind of insulting, really. We need more variety.
Guess who might be going now that the offer is right in my backyard? ;D
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no subject
Date: 2010-09-05 07:13 pm (UTC)Me neither. :('
I don't think I've ever had a little faith in a writer as I do in Sera. Honesty, I can see her doing it if she thinks that all those people who want JUST Sam and Dean speak for everyone; nothing anyone says will convince me that part of the reason the show is 'going back to basics' isn't because of those fans.
That reminds me of a fandom secret that was posted today about how Dean and Cas' friendship was derailed in favor of Dean and Sam's relationship and one commenter said that was stupid because writers don't write stuff because their fanbase wants it and all I could thinks was 'Have you ever been in the SPN fandom? Because these writers do do that'. Now I don't think the writers derailed Dean and Cas' friendship on purpose (Kripke just doesn't seem to be able to write beyond Sam and Dean) but Castiel going from being killed off in Heaven and Hell to a regular because the fans liked him so much comes to mind.
'Things have changed, Castiel has changed, I think Dean can understand given that.'
I think so too.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-05 11:07 pm (UTC)I'm convinced of that as well, without a doubt. They had something going strong for the show, something incredible that should have ended with that bang that they always talked about, and now? It's gone thanks to those people. Those individuals shouldn't even be considered fans because they only want to see 1000+ seasons of no substance but Sam and Dean. They most certainly DO NOT speak for all of us.
one commenter said that was stupid because writers don't write stuff because their fanbase wants it and all I could thinks was 'Have you ever been in the SPN fandom? Because these writers do do that'.
lol, that's ridiculous. The writers have even written fandom being part of canon within the show, they make slash jokes, they make innuendos and plenty of fanservice, how can that not be something in favor of the fans? Now granted there are some shows that don't give into that sort of thing, and that's fine. But if there's one thing Supernatural does is kind of go into that medium of taking fan suggestions and integrating it into the show. And yes, originally Castiel was only supposed to have been in three episodes, but due to fan reaction and popularity of his character he was expanded. That has much to do with what the fanbase wants and is reacting to.
This also makes me hope that, due to fan reactions, they are listening to us when we're complaining about the direction the show has been taking.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-06 02:00 pm (UTC)I've always thought it was neat that people watch shows for all kinds of different reasons, but the fans who keep saying 'I went SPN to go on forever and ever and it to be about JUST Sam and Dean!!1!' really get on my nerves because they're just so vocal about it. I bet they'd be happy if the show turned into Sam and Dean in an empty room just reading the phone book out loud, that way there be no pesky plot or/and characterization to get in the way of their sappy, OOC Sam/Dean fanon.
I was very pleased when I found out that even though the fandom hated Ruby, Kripke kept her on the show because he has plans for her, even if I could see the plot twist coming a mile away (hello, demon) I'm still happy about that.
'This also makes me hope that, due to fan reactions, they are listening to us when we're complaining about the direction the show has been taking.'
I hope so, I'm just worried that Sera will get rid of Lisa because she thinks fandom hates Lisa and Lisa/Dean just because Lisa is a woman and not because (as I suspect) Lisa/Dean will be badly written. Granted there are people out there who hate Lisa just because she's a women and gets in the way of their OTP, but probably not as many as TPTB thinks there are.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-06 08:28 pm (UTC)Oh, me too. It's incredibly irritable and sad to see their priorities set in that place because it shows they don't care if the show plummets to its impending doom. I even had a mini-argument with someone a while back who wanted things to go back to basic, because they hated the angels/the Apocalypse, and they admitted that they seriously didn't care about the story at all. They just wanted the brothers to be together. And that's just....sad, honestly.
If I wanted forever repetitive crappy storylines of characters emoing and angsting about each other, I'd watch a soap opera, okay?
I was very pleased when I found out that even though the fandom hated Ruby, Kripke kept her on the show because he has plans for her, even if I could see the plot twist coming a mile away (hello, demon) I'm still happy about that.
Yeah, I was happy he kept to his guns on that front. I loved Ruby from the start, although I preferred the Ruby they had in S3 than with S4 because I didn't see any continuity between the two at all, both from the different actresses and how it played out, so I was disappointed there especially with the weak explanations they gave. But back on point, he had an idea and wasn't going to get rid of it just because fans were bitching.
I hope so, I'm just worried that Sera will get rid of Lisa because she thinks fandom hates Lisa and Lisa/Dean just because Lisa is a woman and not because (as I suspect) Lisa/Dean will be badly written. Granted there are people out there who hate Lisa just because she's a women and gets in the way of their OTP, but probably not as many as TPTB thinks there are.
I hate that generalization so much. We don't dislike these characters because they are women. IT'S BECAUSE OF THE SHOW SINCE THEY CANNOT WRITE WOMEN AT ALL. That's the main issue that's not getting recognized, and it's not being dealt with. They cannot write for female roles to save their lives, and while yes there may be awesome women characters here and there it's more or less how they treat them, which is always mishandled. That's what should be spotlighted, that's what should be discussed. Saying those other things makes the rest of us lumped together with those other people, and I don't wanna be.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-07 02:06 pm (UTC)I guess some people really are just watching for the pretty. *sigh*
'If I wanted forever repetitive crappy storylines of characters emoing and angsting about each other, I'd watch a soap opera, okay?'
Same here.
'I loved Ruby from the start, although I preferred the Ruby they had in S3 than with S4 because I didn't see any continuity between the two at all, both from the different actresses and how it played out, so I was disappointed there especially with the weak explanations they gave.'
Agreed. I just didn't think the two Ruby's gelled at all, they seemed like two completely different characters. S3 was a real spitfire (loved her 'you better put a leach on your brother' line) but S4 Ruby seemed more of a wet noodle to me. I think it was a combination of bad writing (I get why they had her say 'I would never come between you and your brother' but it still felt OOC) and the fact that Genevieve just couldn't pull off the spitfireness.
'I hate that generalization so much. We don't dislike these characters because they are women. IT'S BECAUSE OF THE SHOW SINCE THEY CANNOT WRITE WOMEN AT ALL.'
You and me both.
'That's what should be spotlighted, that's what should be discussed. Saying those other things makes the rest of us lumped together with those other people, and I don't wanna be.'
Same here. I wish people would talk about how a lot of the female characters are badly written/mishandled instead of constantly just saying that EVERYONE in the fandom misogynistic and that's why they don't like female characters. I would have loved to have liked Lisa/Dean but the way her reintroduction was just so badly handled (it felt like something out of bad-fic) makes that hard. Hopefully Lisa won't turn out to be the Lana Lang of Supernatural; a character the writer's expect us to like just because they like her, and the other characters never stop talking about how perfect that character is. It's show don't tell, writers.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-08 08:58 am (UTC)Agreed. I just didn't think the two Ruby's gelled at all, they seemed like two completely different characters.
Definitely. I understand about the budget thing of hiring actresses (even though I don't know the technicalities behind it all of how it works and such), but they honestly should have picked a better, more competent actress that could actually imitate what Katie Cassidy did in the previous season so it was clear that yes, this is the same Ruby. S3!Ruby had spunk, she was snarky and was unabashed about her bitchiness and nature as a demon. In S4 it seemed like all that went out the window and Ruby became a damsel-in-distress type with how she was written. Oh, and I hated that line about how she didn't want to come between the brothers...that's all she did in S3! Srsly, fail casting directors, utter fail.
I would have loved to have liked Lisa/Dean but the way her reintroduction was just so badly handled (it felt like something out of bad-fic) makes that hard.
Yeah, and I don't hate Lisa at all. I really liked her. But now, because of that random reintroduction, it's becoming really hard to even rewatch her episode in S3 without cringing. And all because of the sucktastic writing and lame way of bringing her back. They should have just left her alone. :/ Way to go for ruining a nice female character yet again, show.
no subject
Date: 2010-09-08 02:42 pm (UTC)Same here.
'but they honestly should have picked a better, more competent actress that could actually imitate what Katie Cassidy did in the previous season so it was clear that yes, this is the same Ruby.'
That's what I've always thought, but one of the problems SPN has always had is that while they tend to be great with casting male characters their female characters are VERY hit or miss casting wise.
'Oh, and I hated that line about how she didn't want to come between the brothers...that's all she did in S3! Srsly, fail casting directors, utter fail.'
I hated that line too. Even if she said it just to try and get on Sam's good side, you'd think he would have realized that 'wait a minute... that's not something Ruby would say'. I guess all the sex and demon blood must have addled his brain. The only time I thought S4 Ruby was anywhere close to S3 Ruby was when she was in the bodies of the blond nurse (I think she was a nurse) and the maid who told Sam to get out of the motel room. I would have loved if in Season Four S3 Ruby had popped up ganked S4 Ruby and said something like 'You really thought that pathetic, low-level demon was me? I'm disappointed in you Sam, you're supposed to be the smart one.'
'But now, because of that random reintroduction, it's becoming really hard to even rewatch her episode in S3 without cringing. And all because of the sucktastic writing and lame way of bringing her back. They should have just left her alone. :/ Way to go for ruining a nice female character yet again, show.'
So true. I'm guessing they brought her back because Dean 'supposedly' wanted a family, and maybe I'm wrong but that would have worked better if Dean had had at least one scene with Ben. Personally I would have loved if they had brought back Risa from The End so we could see how that relationship would have been different since the future in The End isn't going to happen now.