Meta: Responsibility should lie where?

[rogueslayer452]

Okay, I've run across this argument several times in fandom regarding Castiel's involvement in the Apocalypse, and whether or not he should apologize for being somewhat responsible for what happened in the fourth season. This has come up time and again, mostly with debates about his character in general.

Here's what I have to say: Castiel doesn't need to apologize for anything.

It's not that he's not responsible, they all are in many ways, but he's practically proven himself multiple times in redeeming himself from those past wrongs ever since the fourth season finale. He rebelled against Heaven for humanity, he died in protecting the Winchesters, he fought on their side, he killed his brothers and risked himself over and over again, even in times of doubt and despair he still fought alongside them and what they believed in, even risking losing his grace for them. Isn't that enough in convincing that he's making up for those things he wanted to do, but couldn't, based on the upper hand in Heaven? I think many people are forgetting that regardless of what happened, everyone was a pawn to ensure the Apocalypse and the unleashing of Lucifer happened. I mean, surely Castiel could apologize for letting Sam out of the panic room, but what would that accomplish? It would be moot point right now considering all what he's done for the boys since then, and quite frankly I believe actions speak louder than words.

Some people are still hung up on Castiel letting Sam out of the panic room dealio, and while yes bad, but if Castiel hadn't done it another angel would have. It was an inevitable incident that, once again, they all played their part in no matter what. It's almost like people complaining about Castiel "manipulating Dean" in the very same episode. Never mind that those were his orders that he clearly was reluctant on obeying, but had to considering he was held on a very short leash by his superiors. Castiel was torn between wanting to do the right thing and following orders, which he knows the consequences for disobeying; he was growing and learning, he was afraid and rightfully so knowing the manipulative ways Heaven operates. He clearly had remorse, he was tormented with having to do those things but it was like Heaven was placing a gun to his head forcing him to otherwise dire consequences would occur. He had no choice, until Dean convinced him that he did in the finale. Remember, Castiel (and many other angels in fact) weren't given the inside scoop about the true motives the higher superiors were up to regarding the Apocalypse, hence why they were all given to believe they were doing things for the good, until Castiel had discovered it was not the case, which led to him being "retrained" and punished in Heaven and doing those things that he did.

It also reminds me how angry I was at Anna when she came back in S5 to blame Castiel for letting her get caught when, hello, wasn't she the one who previously mentioned that if Castiel had gotten dragged back to Heaven unwillingly it was bad, really bad? Never mind that he did tell her that she shouldn't have arrived, so she should have understood the circumstances he was under despite all of that. She should have known better, especially if she was a so-called "former superior" and all, but no. She blamed him instead of herself in that matter. Another reason why I dislike her character, but that's neither here nor there at this moment.

So in conclusion to this argument, was Castiel responsible for some things happening? In ways yes, as they all were. But he shouldn't need to apologize when he's already made countless amends for everything through his actions since all of that. Think of all he's done for the Winchesters, for humanity, what he's sacrificed and gave up. People should be focusing on what he's done rather than dwelling on a previous incident.


Just needed to get that off my chest.

Other than that, it appears that Creation Entertainment has really pushed the Miracle Button because, come January 2011, Supernatural will be coming to San Francisco! Guys, this is literally right next door to me. \O/\O/ The main reason why I initially went to LACon was because it was the closest convention there would be without having to travel all the way across the country to go to, and lo and behold they've put them even closer. I didn't even realize it until someone on my flist mentioned it a few days ago. This is just awesome. Although come to Sacramento next, will ya guys? The only convention here is Twilight-based and that's kind of insulting, really. We need more variety.

Guess who might be going now that the offer is right in my backyard? ;D

Comments

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

But Castiel did rat Anna out after he'd turned to her for help about "considering disobedience" and she'd trusted him in good faith. He definitely bears responsibility for that.

See, I disagree with that because when he was considering disobedience it was because he didn't know where to turn, he was lost in the woods on what and who to trust and believe. However post-"The Rapture" we learn that after he learned more about the truth and whatever Heaven did to him was to scare him back to be obedient. Considering the circumstances of that, he really didn't rat her out because he told her that she shouldn't have come. Besides, she knew beforehand that it was a bad thing for Heaven to drag him back, so why did she even go to him knowing that he might be underneath hard surveillance by the higher ups?

Granted I hate Anna with a fiery passion so my bias may be coming through due to that, but what I'm saying is that there should be more understanding with Castiel underneath those circumstances that he was under. I understand what you're saying that he inherently had some responsibility of that happening without stopping it, however he's definitely not at fault and shouldn't be blamed entirely and I hated that she tried to do so without considering all that occurred and still is occurring.

Cas is my favorite character, but I think he's morally gray, like most of the characters. It's part of what makes him interesting. He's not worse than Dean or Sam or any of the other good guys, but the fact that he was only reluctantly obeying orders doesn't absolve him of his choices.

There's definitely some moral grayness to him as he's starting to learn and understand the differences between following orders and being responsible for his own actions and choices, and even learning that he does have a choice instead of following orders like a good little soldier. Some are larger than others which he's partaken in, but that's what makes him interesting because he's learning about those consequences. I just feel like many people are blaming him for things that he was clearly trying to figure out, since Castiel was new to the concept of freedom of will and choice and disobeying orders and his family that he's been following for centuries.

The fact that Castiel has that much complexity to his character makes him far more interesting to examine in these kinds of incidents at making sense about him and his involvement, the flaws he has and what he's doing to amend them, etc.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

Definitely agree to disagree on that front. If anything, I think a way to settle it is that there should be shared responsibility for what happened because while Castiel didn't prevent it, but Anna is basically the pot calling the kettle black in this situation with betrayal and cowardice and should definitely had known better since she was the one that ran away from Heaven because she couldn't deal.

And I'm gonna stop with that because believe me, you don't wanna hear me ranting about Anna. Hehe.

I'm in the middle. I understand and can definitely see what Castiel is going through because we're getting more information about his personal journey and how he's handling it and I think that's why there's an understanding and empathizing of his character on that aspect. Gray morality is what makes characters interesting, and I think that's why many fans love him so much. It's just there are some people that hate him and want to blame him for everything and think he should verbalize those faults on the show, and that's what prompted this post in general.

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

I've come across those people quite often in main fandom discussions, so it shouldn't come as a shock to me that they would say something along those lines about Castiel in general. But I do love Castiel and I love his character story that it seems like some people just aren't taking into account the things he's done, the things he's made up for mostly through his actions rather than simply words, and most of all those who don't consider his journey and the kind of development his character has gone through since the beginning of the fourth season.

And yeah, many characters have a long list of things to apologize for on this show, but sometimes it's a level of understanding and proving themselves of their guilt and remorse through such actions in making up for those things. I mean, while this show has the constant angst!fest between Sam and Dean (perhaps too much that needs to be toned down I think...) the constant need to say "I'm sorry" just doesn't cut it anymore. They need to show it, not tell.

[aubade-saudade.livejournal.com]

i actually think Castiel's more morally gray within the structure of canon when he doesn't follow orders and holds himself accountable than when he doesn't and is just a good little soldier. because he's a different creature. he's an angel. they have a different moral code that includes complete obedience.

it's like calling a lioness bad or "morally gray" for bringing down a pretty little baby zebra or something. we can't fault a creature for following its nature. it has a different natural order to follow.

i love the fact that he became kind of a hybrid thing, between an Angel and a human. it would be interesting to read a fic where he deals with that duality. like an expat. :D

[rogueslayer452.livejournal.com]

You know, that's a very good analogy and that's something I haven't considered. Or I have, just not in that particular way of analyzing the difference. There's definitely a different morality code amongst the angels and how they deal with things through obedience and following orders and such, and with Castiel learning both halves of the morality of humans and his own family, he's fallen in that "in between" space, and I like that he's struggling between both.

One of the things I enjoy about Castiel's journey is that he's unlike other angels, he's had a taste of understanding humanity while still maintaining being an angel. That's something most angels haven't experienced (aside from Gabriel, that is), and I agree with wanting to see how Castiel handles that, especially if it's him being new sheriff in Heaven and trying to impose all these things that he's learned from humans that simply doesn't work with the angels and how they operate because that's not in their nature. Because Heaven isn't like Earth, angels aren't humans, there needs to be a natural order of things and Castiel has gotten a taste of both and it would definitely be interesting seeing the outcome of how he handles it all.

Okay, I'm rambling now. But yeah, I really like what you wrote and I agree. /lame ending to long comment. ;p

[aubade-saudade.livejournal.com]

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