It was a slow week.

[rogueslayer452]

++ I'm still accepting questions/prompts for the fandom meme, which I'll be answering shortly. :)

++ I've been thinking about the kinds of narratives that I like seeing in fiction, ones that aren't as used as frequently, at least from the things that I consume. And I kind of want to talk about them briefly.

01. Friendship breakups / fall-outs. Fiction will almost always focus on the breakup of a romantic relationship, but it's rare when it comes to how equally heartbreaking and tragic friendship breakups are. Whether it's from a specific incident or gradually drifting apart, friendship breakups can be just as painful as anything. I feel like we've been fed this "romance comes and goes, but friendships are forever" mentality which, yes, friendships are important to have, but even they can have expiration dates and seeing those fall-outs played out in fiction can be rather cathartic, especially if it's open-ended. Will they reconcile in the future? Will they just learn to accept that things can never go back to the way it was? Will they forever stay bitter and hold a grudge? I like that. It's bittersweet and angsty, but it's something that I really like because it's so meaty since there are a lot of factors that can go into it.

(Additionally to that, the fact that we get to see the slowly falling out of love with said friend or even a romantic partner, that we see the gradual shift of how these people, who were once so close, are just not on the same page anymore. It hurts, it's painful, it can get messy, but it's necessary.)

02. Reformed bully. Having characters who were former bullies, usually kids and teenagers, turning over a new leaf and spending the rest of their lives atoning for those mistakes and misdeeds is something so juicy to me. I like seeing their continued struggles, of attempting to better themselves, of figuring out how to unlearn the things that they had hurt people with before in the past, of them going through those motions of people not believing in them, not forgiving them, that past relationships/friendships might never be restored, etc, and seeing them still fighting regardless because of their guilt, of feeling remorse, and wanting to do better, be better. I've seen people recoil from this narrative because sometimes redemption arcs aren't that well-handled in fiction since there's a lot of those steps I just mentioned that are skipped, or aren't explored enough.

03. Character regression. When a character is going on a journey, and we see them progressing throughout the story, throughout their arc, only for them to go through some shit, and suddenly they start circling back around to where they first started out just in a completely different place, that's also juicy and meaty. When done well, that is. Sadly, a lot of times it's done without rhyme or reason or simply for shock value, which sucks, because I do believe that it is still character development even when it's going down a negative road, it just has to have a narrative reason for why that happened.


++ So....I watched the first episode of Guardian. I honestly didn't know what I expected, but it wasn't that. None of the gifsets or the few things I learned via fandom osmosis prepared me for that kind of an opening to the series. I'm actually surprised I managed to remain as spoiler-free as I did, considering how much I see of it everywhere. I do have a little bit more on my plate right now (still winding down from my other shows, and just mentally in generally), and I mainly just wanted to test out the first episode to see if it was going to be a drama I'd be interested in down the road, and I'm not gonna lie, it has gotten me curious. It'll be on my "to watch later" list.

Comments

[profiterole_reads]

What surprised you in the first episode of Guardian?

I'm almost done watching it and I've encountered a couple of spoilers, but not that many considering the drama is a few years old.

[sherrilina]

Well that first narrative was in this season of Bridgerton!

I am still bitter the friendship breakup wasn't permanent in the Princess Diaries books. Throughout the entire season they built up just what a shitty friend Lilly was, and all along I just wanted them to break up.

[blackcatofmisery]

You mention some really god narratives that aren't often explored (or are done poorly). I particularly like the reformed bully journey, although I also have complicated feelings as one of many who's been bullied. I'm actually not very forgiving, but I still think that people can change. It's hard to handle a character who's initially so unlikable and making the audience sympathetic.

The ending friendships, too, is hard to handle, and there seems to be a majority of bad breakups, whether romantic or not, and more people probably experience and could relate to just growing apart. Growing up and growing apart especially. We don't have to keep the same contacts forever; it's okay. It hurts, but it's allowed? Relationships are complicated, and I like representations of those kinds of friendships that people work for. It's easier to stay mad and block people, but how does that make them ~*~feel~*~?

=^..^=~

[rogueslayer452]

I was not at all expecting the world-building of it being about alien/genetic mutation stuff, that was kind of unexpected. I mean, like I said, I only knew the bare bones information based on the stuff I'd only glanced at face value and it was mostly the shippy stuff, I never gleaned any insight on the actual plot and lore of the story itself.

[rogueslayer452]

I never read the Princess Diaries books but I did watch the first movie, and I remember being irritated by Lily because she did act like a shitty friend.

I really dislike it when you can see how horrible the state of a friendship is, that it becomes one-sided or that one person is being a shitty friend and they do have that friendship breakup, only for them to quickly "reconcile" because of some hokey "friendship is forever" kind of nonsense. It's like, you missed several steps to get to that point. I don't mind reconciliation, but it needs to be earned.

[rogueslayer452]

although I also have complicated feelings as one of many who's been bullied. I'm actually not very forgiving, but I still think that people can change.

I'm someone who also has been bullied, too, but I guess that's why I do have a fascination with these particular narrative arcs because I want to see characters who were bullies try their hardest to better themselves. Like, in my real life I might not be as forgiving, but in fiction it can be cathartic seeing the way things play out watching someone who did wrong go through the motions of attempting atonement. It's also a way of seeing that people can change when they put the time and effort into it.

And not just with those former bullies either, but with anyone, because we're all human and tend to fuck up sometimes, hurt people we didn't mean to or weren't aware of hurting at the time, and we can own up to those mistakes, learn and grow from it.

and more people probably experience and could relate to just growing apart. Growing up and growing apart especially. We don't have to keep the same contacts forever; it's okay. It hurts, but it's allowed?

Yeah, it happens way more frequently especially after high school/college where the friends you made you just kind of...drift apart. It happens, because life happens.

When it comes to fiction it can be difficult to navigate because while in real life things just happen, there needs to be a narrative purpose in fiction for why certain things happen, and it can be tricky because most writers feel like they need something "juicy" for there to be tension between people for a fallout to happen. Relationships are complicated and complex, but not every conflict needs unnecessary drama. You can create a rift or a friendship breakup without making it like it's something so outlandish.

[autumndaze]

Have you read "Falling Falling Stars" by not_poignant? It actually fits all three of the narratives you're looking for here. It's long and still on-going, but it's probably going to finish relatively soon (I'm on the author's discord and follow their socials) and is updated very frequently. It's from the perspective of the bully so to speak, so it's really good.

"The Doctrine of Labyrinths" by Sarah Monette also covers all of these in various forms. Mostly the reformed bully and character regression. Book 1, "Melusine", is a lot about friendship break-ups, though, and how catastrophic and isolating they are for the protagonist.

The Simon Snow trilogy by Rainbow Rowell also kind of handles the reformed bully and friendship break-up narratives.

The "Trials of Apollo" series by Rick Riordan is a big journey of humility starring Apollo, after he's done quite a lot of horrible things to a lot of people and gets a lot of comeuppance. It's very whumpy, and good.

I guess it's kind of why I like Gavin Reed in "Detroit: Become Human" so much, at least in fanon. You get basically all these narratives (though mostly the reformed bully and regression ones) a lot in those fics, and I've played with them a bit.

[profiterole_reads]

I'm not sure if it's the same in the book. I remember reading about Chinese censorship being against magic, but not aliens, though I don't know if that concerned Guardian or some other show(s).

[elizalavelle]

I like that we're talking a bit more about friendships ending and how much that's like a breakup. Romance does come and go but so can friends and it's important to know that and to be open with how that can feel.

[grayswandir]

Yeah -- from what I understand, they don't allow "magic" or anything not explainable by science in shows/movies that take place later than... I think the Republican Era? So magical ancient history is okay, but not magical modern settings. (Supposedly the argument is that showing magic in fictional media promotes superstition. :P ) I haven't read the Guardian novel, but I believe it has ghosts/spirits rather than aliens. (The Lost Tomb books also feature supernatural stuff like zombies, which the shows had to make up hazy "scientific" explanations for. But apparently as long as you can say "it's a genetic mutation that makes them have these magic powers," it's fine...)

[profiterole_reads]

Thanks for the confirmation! I did wonder about wuxia being allowed. As for DMBJ, I had noticed that they were playing with "is this magic or is this real (via science and a lot of very specific hallucinations)?" lol

[author_by_night]

Fiction will almost always focus on the breakup of a romantic relationship, but it's rare when it comes to how equally heartbreaking and tragic friendship breakups are. Whether it's from a specific incident or gradually drifting apart, friendship breakups can be just as painful as anything. I feel like we've been fed this "romance comes and goes, but friendships are forever" mentality which, yes, friendships are important to have, but even they can have expiration dates and seeing those fall-outs played out in fiction can be rather cathartic, especially if it's open-ended. Will they reconcile in the future? Will they just learn to accept that things can never go back to the way it was? Will they forever stay bitter and hold a grudge? I like that. It's bittersweet and angsty, but it's something that I really like because it's so meaty since there are a lot of factors that can go into it.

And I've noticed when we DO deal with that, the friend usually dies or is dying, rather than it just being a rough breakup. Which is why I won't read or watch a popular novel adapted to netflix (no spoilers). I knew without spoiling myself that one of the women was going to have terminal cancer or something in the end, because that ALWAYS happens, and sure enough, when I looked it up to see if I should try... it ends with one of the women having terminal cancer. FFS.

(It's also why when I was watching A League of Their Own I kept waiting for one of the sisters to get hit by a rogue ball and die. That never happens, they're fine, but I was nervous.)


I agree that friend breakups hurt. I've lost close friends (drifting, nothing morbid!) and that shit hurts. I cried over it. I went through a similar cycle where you blame the other person, blame yourself, and it goes on and on and on. I'd like to see that portrayed more. And you're right - friendship doesn't always last forever. Which honestly, is okay. It sucks, but it's okay to just... let what was have been. If that makes sense. I don't regret most of my friendships, not even ones that ended badly, because with a few exceptions they still brought something to my life. However, they ran their course - in some cases crashed and burned, in other cases we just drifted.

I'm trying to think of some good fictional examples and I'm struggling, which probably proves your point. I guess the closest I can come up with is Faith from Buffy, where I also think Faith was the "bad kid" friend I think we all had in our teens and twenties. I can't really think of any adult examples at all.

I've seen people recoil from this narrative because sometimes redemption arcs aren't that well-handled in fiction since there's a lot of those steps I just mentioned that are skipped, or aren't explored enough.

I think it's also quite exhausting dealing with terrible people. I love Schitt's Creek, but you have to get through two seasons of all four characters... kind of being the worst before they finally start becoming better. But people DON'T just become better people overnight.


adly, a lot of times it's done without rhyme or reason or simply for shock value, which sucks, because I do believe that it is still character development even when it's going down a negative road, it just has to have a narrative reason for why that happened.

Yeah, I think I need a reason for the character to circle around. It's fascinating to read/watch but has to be done well. If the character just doesn't seem well developed, there you go. :/ And you're right, it often is done for shock value, rather than with respect for the character and the reasons they keep spiraling.

[author_by_night]

And not just with those former bullies either, but with anyone, because we're all human and tend to fuck up sometimes, hurt people we didn't mean to or weren't aware of hurting at the time, and we can own up to those mistakes, learn and grow from it.

Hell, I know in a lot of ways, I wasn't much better than the kids I despised. I was better in that I never SAID the things the other kids did, but did I judge? Hell yeah.

(And as much as I hate to say it, I have to call out how high school is portrayed in fiction. I know reality isn't answerable to fiction, and I'm not saying I didn't have responsibility not to be as judgmental as I was. I definitely did, and I own it now that I'm older and wiser. But when all through middle school you're told you're the nerdy kid who has to prepare to hate the dumb cheerleaders, who are all the spawn of satan... it doesn't help. It was mostly the druggies who made fun of me, more so the cheerleaders. I was very "innocent" - think Buffy season one Willow or Luna Lovegood - and they ate that right up. Most of the cheerleaders just ignored me, but I mean, I ignored them. So.)

I'd also be less forgiving in real life, but I think fiction allows you to explore nuances. Which many people do have. In real life, I think you have to do what's best for you mentally, and maybe even in fiction we should see portrayals of former victims being like "hey, I get that you've changed, I just can't do this." Which is valid, quite honestly. But I also think you can look at why a person was how they were, and how they may have changed since that time.


When it comes to fiction it can be difficult to navigate because while in real life things just happen, there needs to be a narrative purpose in fiction for why certain things happen, and it can be tricky because most writers feel like they need something "juicy" for there to be tension between people for a fallout to happen.

Yeah, it's definitely tricky. Quite honestly, "we just stopped having anything to talk about" isn't that interesting. But there's a middle gorund, I think, between that and the melodramatic, and often there is still a level of complexity even IRL. It might even be a better twist if it IS a series of small things on both/all sides that lead to the breakup. Where no one's really good or bad, life just... sucks. Because that's hard andmessy in its own right, and truth be told, I think that's usually what conflict is anyway. Everyone was vindicated AND in the wrong at the same time, because it's in different shades that they were right/wrong. Gah. Why are relationships. :P

[blackcatofmisery]

That catharsis from seeing someone else change and grow is something I agree with, too. It's harder to personally experience or tolerate, but knowing that it can possibly happen is hopeful, at least.

And that need for juiciness is something across all media, even news media. Consumers don't actually need to be spoonfed the worst of the worst or the most emotional stories ever; sometimes the best thing is the story about childhood friends who meet up again as adults and hang out at the park petting other people's dogs and finding they're still comfortable with one another.

It's not necessarily anything deep. We're a complex species but pretty simple to please.

[rogueslayer452]

I'm trying to think of some good fictional examples and I'm struggling, which probably proves your point.

I can only think of three that I'm more familiar with in recent years, and they were all messy and complicated but had their purposes for being so. It hurt, it was angsty, but it was necessary, in my opinion anyway, and they left off being more or less open-ended (one of them is still ongoing and idk how that'll be handled in the continuing canon, so we'll see).

But I do think there needs to be a good balance of showing the complications of all relationships, and that sometimes, they do run their course, for better or for worse.

I think it's also quite exhausting dealing with terrible people. [...] But people DON'T just become better people overnight.

This is a fair point, but it's also true that, even when characters don't start off as good people, they have to reach that point of becoming better people, and that simply doesn't happen overnight. If it happens too quickly in the narrative, it'll be considered bad writing, but if it happens gradually, people might not be as engaged with seeing that journey unfold, especially if they have already associated that character with being a "bad person" -- as fandom oftentimes do, hyperfocus on a particular trait and only categorize that character as that trait even though there's more to them than just that.

[rogueslayer452]

I've seen a lot more talk, at least in the spaces I've been in, surrounding not only this concept but understanding more about setting your own personal boundaries in your real life concerning friendships, knowing when to let go, when to recognize that a friendship isn't good anymore, etc. We don't often see that in fiction, and the few that I have seen depict it has been depressing and heartbreaking, as it needs to be.

[rogueslayer452]

Hell, I know in a lot of ways, I wasn't much better than the kids I despised.

I think this is a reality that is a hard pill to swallow for most of us, since we don't like viewing ourselves in this way. Though through introspection and hindsight, our behaviors are often reflections of how we were treated. It's that vicious cycle that, once acknowledged, can be broken.

But when all through middle school you're told you're the nerdy kid who has to prepare to hate the dumb cheerleaders, who are all the spawn of satan... it doesn't help.

I legitimately hate that trope so much.

I know everyone's experience in school is different, but from my experience those who bullied me were just...random students, often just little tight knit friend groups. Kinda like "cliques" of their own, but not really stereotypical cliques, just little friend groups. Cheerleaders were never a problem (hell, the whole "cheerleaders/jocks are popular/treated like royalty" didn't even exist anywhere in my school experience, they were just....regular students who had a specific extracurricular activity, that's it, they weren't treated special by the school or anyone else for that matter). So in my personal experience, anyone could be a bully and anyone could be bullied, no matter who you were.

(I have a lot of opinions of how Western media portrays high school in general that is not based in reality at all, but that's a rant for another time.)

But I also think you can look at why a person was how they were, and how they may have changed since that time.

Yes, exactly.

It might even be a better twist if it IS a series of small things on both/all sides that lead to the breakup. Where no one's really good or bad, life just... sucks.

YES. This actually happened in one of the canons I love, where it was handled extremely well by showing the complications of both sides and how the rift between them happened. It was smaller stuff, connected to bigger things beyond their control, and they both had a hand in the inevitable breakup, but you also understand where they were coming from with their actions, and things just got messy and complicated because things were messy and complicated in the plot itself. It breaks my heart, but it's also so well-done that I can't be mad at how well all of it was executed because the angst is so good.

So yeah, it can be done well, but there needs to be some kind of planning out of how it happens so it doesn't seem like it comes out of left-field or makes no sense to the characters or their circumstances.